Re: LegionTD Pro beta12 released - 23.12.2013.

A_MHE_HACCATb Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:16 pm

Do not forget to fix several timers. Also sometimes seen wisps and value of all players with -mm.

**von_Oberstain** Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:27 pm

DAMN! you just me realize that "at midnight" probably means pacific time, so in the morning here... couldn't possibly go to work... or will be delayed... you can probably start immediately after work... but here's the secret masterplan:

"FEW GOOD MEN COULD RULE THE OPEN MARKET - as soon as more informations leak about items, we could like start selling unneeded stuff and buying/finding one or more specific items which will be needed by everyone at some point... at first, we would re-sell them to each other, creating illusion that everything is OK and it's still the "buyers market", while secretly taking control on that item and then - BOOM! NO MORE OF THAT IRREPLACEABLE ITEM, unless our price is paid... and whole gain we use in few more iterations of 'unseen buying' and finish controlling the market, MUAHAHAHAHHA!"

must... resist the urge... to automate tooltips MORE - or i'll end up again spending whole afternoon/evening on what i planned to be 15-minute excel job Smile

HuanAk wrote:
If you give them Damage & Speed, then you shouldn't give them dps information because it is their job to work it out..... and it is good reason for them to use pen & paper on their computer desk.

shhhh, you've just revealed part of the secret formula! pen and paper is OK, i used to have two egg-timers (ones with SAND, not those electric ones) to remind me when to attack base in wc3... (and when egg is ready, if playing/eating at the same time)

of course, using a cell-phone for reminder would be... lame Smile

(and for them eggs, too)

LRN Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:23 pm

Looks fine. Though maybe you'd want to separate attack(range)/armor into 2 lines (both description and the value are a bit long).

P.S. You WC3 resolution seems to be screwed up. Wide-screen display?

JediMindaugas Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:39 pm

I would say that normalized values are just as misleading. For one, most people will not understand them, second - even if chaos is clearly better than pierce and Fortified>Light armor, the usefulness varies between races and levels.

LRN Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:32 pm

They are good for "on average". You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that pierce-damaging unit will do MUCH better against light-armored wave. It isn't entirely obvious, though, that its overall effectiveness will be lower than of a chaos-damaging unit. These average stats will help you in your long-term planning.

Besides, you still get the exact "unnormalized" values, which are not misleading.

But yes, there should be a piece of documentation (F9) that explains the meaning of these values.

**von_Oberstain** Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:38 am

timers: this annoys me, too - much more than tooltips (probably force of habit, tooltips weren't much informant when i started to play, unlike timers), so i too would like to have them fixed. problem is both doubling and disappearing of timers happens too randomly for me to actually understand what could possibly cause them. on paper they look like they should work normally (as before, their code is untouched)...

widescreen: unfortunately, yes Sad

i'm too old-school to actually like deformed 16:9, but my CRT monitor died recently and all i could find was this. when playing wc3, i take a bother to switch to 4:3, but for testing purposes - well, menu-enter-exit, 50+ times in a row - you get the picture (literally, too Smile

)... and excel actually benefits from more columns, last one used is currently "BM"

documentation and normalized values: yes, agreed that they are confusing when supplied without documentation. fortunately, it's in process of writing... i put normalized values in tooltips cause lots of people actually used DPS/g and HP/g, which they calculated themselves, so i thought that they might as well be in tooltips. but if they are overcrowding - well, putting them out is easy...

DPS aside (chaos rules there), but HP modification is definitely more useful than its counterpart, mainly cause thing aren't being so clear here:
- light being worse than unarmored - excels at nothing, and suffers from generally low overall defensive qualities - yet more than 1/5 units has it. it's more a weakness than a feature, and modified value indicate this, while hp-wise light armored units look tougher than they really are (new light armored units often have armor 4 as a compensation, again modified values reflects their increased tanking capabilities)

- medium being better than heavy - well, even on average it's a small variation (+4%), but AS UNBELIEVABLY IT MAY SOUNDS, it was actually tested in real life, full-house, all-good game ALL THE WAY TILL LVL30, IN MULTIPLE GAMES (happy and ishmael did this, i just participated, but felt compelled to use uppercase to indicate how good players they were, not only that both survived but were also highly-competitive in income, all of that with almost exclusively one armor type). switching in medium/hard usage, this test was actually conclusive for me - medium armor user did better in every game...

- that aside, some less-obvious facts may be observed, for example how good is troll fighter as a tank. it's almost as good as basher and grizzly, and better than pulverizer. now, typical new beast player will ignore this and put troll into defensive, back position - thus causing himself problems on lvl5 and lvl8

- high modified hp may make someone willing to experiment with "tanking trolls", especially with new-and-improved trolls, weak aura being actually less important than hidden improvement (and till recently, hidden handicap) - namely, annoying salto animation is INTERRUPTIBLE and lasts 1.33 sec (+the backswing later), which was actually an troll-specific unpredictable waste of dps (causing players pulling their hair out, or like me, shaving head to prevent this happen Smile

). oh, all this addresses "side-tanking", rather than "troll infront", but them trolls *should* do their part in all-but-normal levels, especially flying/ranged ones...

ok, enough of my prattle - if definitive answer is that modified values (or normal HP/g) are not needed, they are going out... this prolonged reply will, if nothing, assure you of my capabilities of writing endless strategy articles/guides...

-------------------------
oh and there should be more REALLY good news REALLY soon - but more of them when it happens! it was actually one of reasons for prolonged wait on A7 and A3, and should speed up work on map significantly...

LRN Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:58 am

von_Oberstain wrote:
widescreen: unfortunately, yes i'm too old-school to actually like deformed 16:9, but my CRT monitor died recently and all i could find was this. when playing wc3, i take a bother to switch to 4:3, but for testing purposes - well, menu-enter-exit, 50+ times in a row - you get the picture (literally, too )... and excel actually benefits from more columns, last one used is currently "BM"

You do know you can run WC3 in a window, right? And give that window any size you want?

**von_Oberstain** Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:45 am

yes, but force of habit again - too much wc3, so i scroll only on mouse and each time cursor runs left or right and out of window, i have a mild shock Smile

and if you play arranged team in regular wc3 and move hand from the mouse just to scratch yourself, your team-mate starts to beat you up...

LRN Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:31 am

von_Oberstain wrote:yes, but force of habit again - too much wc3, so i scroll only on mouse and each time cursor runs left or right and out of window, i have a mild shock

and if you play arranged team in regular wc3 and move hand from the mouse just to scratch yourself, your team-mate starts to beat you up...

You do know that you can use HAMMER to prevent mouse from leaving WC3 window?

**von_Oberstain** Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:56 am

no. what's the hammer? never noticed it, since i wasn't in need to use windowed wc3 until recently... to be honest, i'm still not accustomed to widescreen - it is one thing i didn't like from the start, and avoided while it was possible... in games, i just use 4:3 hardware option, where needed (and it's just wc3 - all i can manage to play in spare time is legion and occasional civ4 game)

so, if that hammer allows me to scroll with a mouse in windowed mode, i could use it...

Grassfrog Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:31 pm

i dont know about aprogramm called hammer, but i can tell from my experience.
i play in window mode since years and use wmc (windows mouse capturer). its very easy to use, you specify your wc3 window,
and a hotkey to turn the program on and off. thats all. once activated, whenever you leave your wc3 window the program automatically turns off, if you switch back in it, it turns on again.

on another note, i read you wanna buff chaos. so far its the strongest builder untill lvl5 for me (8 wisps and 1 up),
only if i want to hold lvl 6 i have to prepare for it with ~5 wisps and 1 up.
im excited to see how much wisps i get with buffed chaos Wink

**von_Oberstain** Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:44 pm

this is in X3 version, right? i always wondered how it will perform there, and now have an answer... but both tier1 and tier2 have different stats and it's an easy balance fix for X3...

in general, i had in mind chaos as a race which is (a) chaotic for most parts; (b) has to work more in pumping income and stick with middle tiers longer than others, since unupgraded tiers 5 and 6 aren't useful as in other races...

(a) is achieved well enough, an will be better with variable damage (which it will get after bit more balancing, always easier to eliminate extreme cases of good/bad luck in balancing phase, in order to avoid misleading feedback based on those specific cases)

(b) won't work so well in X3, for obvious availability reasons

so, can you describe the strong build? does it relies on early tier5? i had a "feeling" that it will probably be of much more use in Revo than in Pro (simply because earlier availability), but i can nerf unupgraded tier5 for Revo only...

in Pro, chaos had some difficulties on early levels, due to most damage being magic, so changes are mainly in small tier1 and tier2 buffs (actually, i'm trying to make acolyte/cultist start viable, since i really hate to play races which has whole unneeded tier - applies to both tier1, and aura units, which i always try to fix in a way that making more of 1-per-aura units make some sense - with variable success)

for medium buffs, i had in mind flame spirit and possibly father dragon upgrades... buff may be adding an ability for flame spirit, it was supposed to have one initially, but was switched back to 2nd attack

thanks for recommendations, and for 4:3 suggestions in this *sigh* 16:9 world

Grassfrog Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:17 pm

yes, i meant revo version :/
i usually start with 5 unupgraded tier1 and buy 4 wisps (5 wisps before lvl1 starts).
for lvl 2 i buy 1 tier2, then the wood upgrade and after that its basically 1 wisp each lvl (but then you will leak lvl6, if want to hold you have to stop at 5-6 wisps and 1 upgrade after lvl 3)
until lvl 8 I only build tier 1 and 2, but im not sure about my builtafter this.

strange, its hard to remember if you arent actually in a game Very Happy

LRN Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:18 pm

Grassfrog wrote:i play in window mode since years and use wmc (windows mouse capturer).

Be aware that WMC is not free software ('free' as in 'free speech'). Thus:
1) You don't have any way to circumvent any restrictions, bugs or lack of features WMC has.
2) You can't verify that WMC is not stealing or destroying your personal data, or that it does not allow third parties to gain control over your PC. And if you find out that it does, it will be difficult (if not impossible) to stop it.
3) You can't redistribute WMC without explicit permission from WMC authors.
4) You can't change WMC and redistribute changed versions.

HAMMER is free software, which averts all 4 of the points above.

Grassfrog wrote:its very easy to use, you specify your wc3 window,

HAMMER is a bit contrived in that regard (you type in a [part of the] window name, press "Search", and then select the right window from the list; usually there's only one window; You can also search by window class, and there's a way to use HAMMER from command line, in which case it works automatically (finds the window and locks it), without showing a GUI).

Grassfrog wrote:and a hotkey to turn the program on and off.

That functionality is completely redundant. Pressing WINKEY will disable any mouse clipping (it's a W32 Explorer feature).

Grassfrog wrote:thats all. once activated, whenever you leave your wc3 window the program automatically turns off, if you switch back in it, it turns on again.

HAMMER does that too.

HAMMER will also work for most games (not just WC3), and will allow you to remap the keys used to scroll around.

Also, it is possible to lock a window, close HAMMER, and the locking part will continue to work without it (i.e. it will lock and unlock on alt-tab etc).

von_Oberstain wrote:thanks for recommendations, and for 4:3 suggestions in this *sigh* 16:9 world

Dagoth Ur is welcome. You might also find handy a script for resizing WC3 window to a given resolution (you can just drag window corner, of course, but then you'll never know if it's 100% 4:3, or a few [dozens of] pixels off the mark; unless you have Major in Arts, in which case you can probably do it very accurately). Poke me if you think you need it.

Grassfrog Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:49 pm

o.O
i wasnt aware of all these. i have no prove, but i had no problems so far with wmc.
i dled it for free from playdota.com, the best about the program is, that it has no other feature than capturing the mouse and is very easy to use.

LRN Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:39 am

Grassfrog wrote:o.O
i wasnt aware of all these. i have no prove, but i had no problems so far with wmc.
i dled it for free from playdota.com

Just go to the free software article on Wikipedia and then switch to the version written in your native language (if you have trouble understanding English). That should be enough to explain the concept (going any further into this matter here would be off-topic).

Grassfrog Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:50 am

k, thx
back to topic (more or less)
do you know a bot who hosts the pro version on bnet?
"[rise] legiontd revo #" thats the bot i play revo on, would be nice to play some "real" legiontd.
sadly x1 is not that popular anymore Sad

LRN Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:20 am

I'm mostly playing on iCCup. Sadly, iCCup bot only hosts Mega right now. I hope to convince them to host Pro as well. That is, once it is released.

**von_Oberstain** Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:31 am

finding a place to play is currently a major problem - and that was good news i mentioned earlier - there should be BOTH Pro and Revo hosting bots, available both on bnet and garena, in foreseeable future. now, i don't want to ruin a friends credibility (i did it with mine already, giving false release dates and too short deadlines), so lets just say preparations are underway. as soon as bots are set up and working, i'll update A3 and A7 to forum as a public release (they WON'T have tooltips fixed, and most recent changes, since that are "most stable" alphas, and current work version has some untested features)

until then, there are two bots hosting Revo A2 (shamefully bugged release, which demanded more promptly fixing, none-else's fault but mine) - [rise] and [sttf], and none for Pro

previously, good quality games could be found in garena/europeRPG elementtd11 room, but room suddenly become vacant - virtually overnight and none of the players i had in friends-list aren't online - a very, very strange thing (especially considering that other TD-games were hosted there too, it was far from exclusively-LTD room and, well - it was full most of the time)

there is only one bot hosting 1.6b (that i'm aware of) and it's located in azeroth, join channel 'legiontd' and bot will announce games. none for the northrend, to my knowledge

bots hosting alphas will help development considerably, since i'll be able to participate in games and fix the bugs in real-time (work version, that is), with frequent map updates

previous release cycle was formed like this (for UE, mostly):
1. games in my LAN, 4-6 players - typically got ~50 player games (one game worthing 4 or 6 player games, as opposed to solo testing, where it's just 1 player game). this phase typically took place on weekends and most common bugs were found that way, before any release
2. open garena tests - on an afternoon of playing, with good host and good players, i would got ~80 player games, fixing bugs in real time or immediately after test
3. secondary garena tests - since game was popular and hosted frequently, after a few days there were hundreds of player games, and logging in gave me info on both remaining bugs and balance issues
4. in the meantime, people i know reported bugs directly on skype

now, WITHOUT good host and quality games, testing is restricted to internal LAN, or games i host with my connection, which is pretty unsuitable for that use (worse - if everyone download map from my connection, it takes forever to start, and some people just dl and go, or exit on first leak, and generally aren't nowhere close in skill to garena team)

anyhow, since garena room demise, i've lost insight on that hundreds of player games - and that's the main reason while Pro has SEVEN alphas till now (granted, transition to Pro/Revo is biggest one yet)

so, basically almost whole testing process collapsed (even team testers are playing rarely now, if ever), so complete test structure has to be made again - that's where bots come in. by actually being able to PLAY game, i'll get more info than before and, indeed, be more motivated to do editing (without playing it's not satisfactory and motivating at all Smile

- and i definitely don't seek mapmaking glory in my advanced age, chief reason why i joined eGze was keeping a good game from slowly dying)

now, if someone knows another place where games can be found, i'll be interested in that, too

A_MHE_HACCATb Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:02 am

24/7 bot works in garena Russia TD Room 01 (but garena sometimes crash then temporarily not working) and kalimdor/northrend/azeroth/lordaeron/eurobattle.net/rubattle.net (all servers channel is "legiontd") bounce

Grassfrog Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:11 pm

von_Oberstain

i tried my acolyte build again to give you a precise answer, though i leaked some lvls because of really big summons, the table contains:
lvl- number of units unit tier (leaks), economy
1- 4x tier1 = 80g (0), 3wisps and wood upgrade
2- 3x tier1 = 140g (0), (1-)2 wisps, depends on gg and hg gold
3- 1x tier1 and 1x tier2 = 230g (0), 1 wisp
4- 1x tier2 = 300g (0)
5- nothing = 300g (0)
6- 6x tier2 and 2x upgrade tier2 = 920g (0), 1 wisp
7- 2x upgrade tier1 = 1120g (0), 1 wisp and lumber up
8- nothing
9- 6x upgrade tier1 = 1720g (0), 2 wisps
10- 2x upgrade tier2 [it may be not necessary to build them , didnt tried it yet] = 1920g (0), 1 wisp
11- 2x upgrade tier2 = 2120g i got a pit lord, frost wolf and demon here -.- (12), 2 wisps
12- nothing = 2120g (0), 1 wisp
13- 2x upgrade tier2 = 2320 (0), 1 wisp
14- 5x tier5 and 4x upgrade tier5 = 3950g (0), 1 wisp and lumber up
15- 1x upgrade tier5 = 4150g (0), 9 wisps
16- 2x tier5 = 4450g (0), 4 wisps and lumber up
17- 2x tier5 and 2x upgrade tier5 = 5190 (0)
18- 2x upgrade tier5 = 5630g (0), lumber up
19- 1x tier4 and 1x upgrade tier4 = 5950g (0)
20- 3x tier4 and 3x upgrade tier4 = 6910g (1) [i had still 1090g left, but tried to build with the lowest value possible, sadly i got 2 demons, 2 ninjas and 1 anubarak, the boss survived with 1482 hp -.-]

i had some kraken between lvl 13-19, several whelps and dinos from lvl 1-10, the build is solid with full economy at the end of lvl 18
lvl 2 only is very hard if you get a dino, to play save build the wisp while creeps fight and therefor 1x more tier1

http://ifile.it/joxzbny

PS: this is what i call a wisp/income oriented builder, instead of chaos we should talking about element, believe me or not, the builder is stucked in another legiontd period and its time to port him to the present form of ltd (imo it is only a small buff in overall dmg necessary)
this is enough of revo talk in this thread, every thing else i gonna mention in the thread which is meant for this (there is still a huge list of input waiting for u Wink

A_MHE_HACCATb Tue May 01, 2012 4:52 pm

Pls fix bug with troll value 105 gold

**von_Oberstain** Fri May 04, 2012 10:24 pm

will do. in the meantime, since waiting was way too long, both Pro and Revo "last stable" revisions...

they DON'T have tooltips or perhaps some of newer bugs, but annoying stuff with corrupted nature growth is fixed

Revo A3 has MAJOR bugfixes (no more disappearing units, -cb working, random working correctly) - basically i should release it long ago to fix that shameful A2...

not the release all been waiting for, but still better than nothing, i suppose...

LRN Sat May 05, 2012 1:51 am

You've missed something. The map that is available for download via LTD PRO link is, actually, an X3 version.

**von_Oberstain** Sat May 05, 2012 4:59 am

it is? not a surprise at all, virtually every release had something problematic... i also expect a large and potentially game-breaking bug to be found, though map was internally tested quite a bit... ok, lets go again

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