About the mode GG

Alright, so, i been reading through alot of the suggestions and experienced my self first hand how GG works. Especially with Goblin, 1 incommer in our team i can get about 100+ income by the end of level 10 usually, due to the 36 more dcreeps that comes my way. In 1 sence, that is uterally not fair, because of one team has a incommer and the other team doesn't, than the game becomes unfair and the incommer team usually wins. However, without GG the game will not work, because with some races you just can't win. For example, what if you 3 arctics on 1 team? does that mean level 13 will be GG for the 3 arctic team? It all depends.
First of all, i think that GG should NOT be deleted nor nerfed; heres is my suggestion.
When you put in GG mode, The amount of money you get will be split up upon the other team too. For example, you have a 3v3 situation and your team has 1 incommer. The incommer leaks all of level 1 (3*36) which is 108 gold. The 108 gold will be split evenly among the other team. (36 gold for each playar on the other team).
So, How does this idea sound? :]

No. Sorry but you are wrong. I was just in a game where the incomer on my team and I were arguing about this. Red and the incomer agreed GG mode meant you were supposed to have an incomer on your team. I said no, you're not supposed to income, and the incomer (purp) went off on me, I believe it went something like this: "you are retarded teal, how do you know what the intent of -gg mode is? did you program the game?" Then I asked him when he started playing, he said 1.3b. Well, if it were true that you started in 1.3, and you've been with Legion since, then you would the intent of patching 1.41c to 1.42 WAS TO GET RID OF PURE INCOMING ENTIRELY. No, I did not program the game, but I have been playing long enough to know that the official version of Legion (which 2.7 is not) has done away with pure incoming.

And as far as your "what if we all pick the same race and lose cause we can't take it", welcome to Tower Defense. You are on a team and you should plan accordingly. Anyone who has ever played Burb TD can tell you that. God knows this would never happen anyway because every single game I play at least 3-4 go fire machine because any noob and their mother can play that build. 6 workers by level 2-3 only having to build one thing is stupid as hell.

IMO in 2.7b, HG and GG need to be reversed. Leakers kills need to give gold to the other team and king kills needs to give gold to your team, after all your king is on your team, why should his kills give gold to the other team? And it needs to be a lot of gold to the other team, not 100% of leaks, but much more than the small % HG normally gives. This forces people to stop pure income feeding and actually learn how to play the game. But mostly, just prevents people from leaking 2 levels in a row and saying 'screw it, I can't build back I'll just build workers'.

Other suggestions:

Reduce starting lumber. Level 2 furbolgs and chariots are cheap. Then everyone just spams at how big of a noob you are for leaking. Can you take a level 1 dino in 1.60 spending all your gold? So why would it be any different for x3?

Take away builds where 1 thing can take the first 3 levels.

And also, sorry for the double post, but isn't the point of the game to not leak?

OMG GUYS!

Sry for this type of introduction but this topic has been overwhelmingly exausted. EgZe finally made a decision to nerf it greatly which i reckon is good. Pity for u that he's a boss here, not nerfed gg can make game of 3 incomers possible which is... stupid...

Topic closed. NO MORE TALKING ABOUT -GG.

Just created this topic, so no one speaks about -GG mode again (it doesnt seem like me and PROC asking you guys not to talk about it any more in other topics has helped so maybe this will help).

Like PROC said EGZE who is the boss and has heard about GG way too much for it to be constructive any more. He is well aware of all the disadvantages and advantages of -GG. He has for now nerfed it in a balanced way and has other more important ideas that he is working on. If he decides to change it at a later stage or add other modes, to compliment it etc then thats his choice.

PS: PROC can you lock this topic (in case some ediot decides to reply to it )

I am open to talk about GG mode.

I think that +1 gold for creep and splited between players in team is good. Mode is not "imba" like before. I know all play -apmmhgggx3 but this is very, very boring for players who want harder game.

And icomer also gains gold from creeps, that he doesn't kill. Maybe those, who has value of fighters less than 100 (500? 1000?) can't gain gg-gold?

Next time I reckon it should depend on the number of wave e.g. 1-10 (1 gold per creep, provided value to get it: 125), 11-20 (2 gold per creep, provided value to get it: 500) etc.

Next time this solution is stupid because all incomers will put some towers like 125 to get this income. All incomers gonna play marine also cause they have bottom feeders + fangtooths which pwns 2 first waves paying themselves totally.

EgZe plz just remove it or let it stay like this and don't bother about their nor my suggestions.

100 post yeah ;P

I think what everyone here on the forum that has discussed gg mode is wanting a sort of "default" mode that can balance between stopping incomers but still allowing the game to go past the first 8 or 13 levels (on 3* waves).

Trying to make a default mode like this is going to be really tough because the more the mode leans to helping teams for leaked creeps (so that the game can actually get to the 31 or 40 levels instead of ending on lvl 7 or 8 or 13 a lot ) then the more the incomer benefits.

There are a few approaches that can be taken to solve this:

- You can take the approach EGZE has taken and make GG very minimal which helps the incomer slightly and the game get slightly further
- You can totally remove GG (although this wont prevent incoming at all, because its still very easy to do, like proc said build bottom feeders (which sell for 95%), just enough to cover you until 7 with a few wisp upgrades, then sell all of them and buy huge amounts of wisp upgrades)
- Or you could create a limited income (no pure incomer mode) mode

I think EGZE step is the best initially because its an improvement form the current GG mode but the future step should be creating a limited incoming (no pure incomer mode)

If the host decides he wants to host an incoming mode (like the nerfed -GG) then thats his choice and right (and if this is the more popular option then we cant argue becuase thats what the majority want then. There are also ways around it, i.e. dont join his game or get hosting yourself (with the new lag fixes it should be easy to host on lower lines)

Maybe if we could focus on making suggestions for this limited incomer mode it would help EGZE.
I have a few suggestions (and I know PROC will have some good ones like he had above)

When I talk about limited incoming, am talking about limiting number of wisp upgrades per level when it looks like you are pure incoming or limiting number of wisp upgrades to tower value (so the players have to build if they want wisp upgrades)

First, we need to define the variables that will let the map know the player is trying to pure income (as opposed to semi income - building to kill all creeps and still getting decent income). They are

- Leaks (if the player is leaking a huge percentage - if not all his creeps then this can be used as a variable)
- number of wisp upgrades vs Tower Value

There are 3 scenarios:
- players all building in their own lanes
- Players building mid together
- 1 player building mid and catching all the waves

Before we start talking about this please note:
It doesnt work to build enough towers to kill half the wave, the best is killing the whole wave or pure incoming and killing none of it. When trying to cover only half the wave to income harder, you start leaking more and more until eventually you leaking almost everything. The 2 variables will then kick in for this scenario. i.e your tower value will be low for the leve you are on so your wisp upgrades will be limited and you will soon start leaking 80% + of your creeps and be limited to number of wisp upgrades per level.

Lets talk about guys building in their lanes first.
Leaks is a nice variable if the guy is leaking at least 80% of his wave then the number of wisp upgrades he can have must be limited (this is fine for noobs that genuinley are leaking this much because they wont be able to afford many workers and if they decide to just start incoming they will be penalized by only allowing limited number of workers)

Wisp upgrade value vs tower value
Another way of doing it is that the wisp upgrade value is never allowed to be over the tower value. This will also help players not buy too many workers and too little towers for the rounds (I have seen lots of noobs build way too much defence for rounds then all of a sudden pump out 6 workers in the next round and leak worse and worse)

Both these suggestions will stop incomers and not hinder semi-incomers (not hindering semi-incomers will be discussed more in this thread I am sure, because guys will argue that they can produce more wisp upgrades then tower value and not leak) i.e. Goblin's immolition unit (my memory has gone blank now lol forgotten its name) can hold first 3 waves (on 3* waves by itself) but on the 4th wave you need lots of towers to cover the wave. The unit costs about 4-5 worker upgrades. You can get more workers then tower value in this case because you can get like 6/7 wisp upgrades but then you will leak wave 4.) Another scenario which only applies to first few levels with demi-human and their splash dmg goblin engineers and 1 or 2 servants you can kill creeps easily until level 5 and then the goblin engineers suck against air (as they dont do splash dmg to air) they also stuggle against 4 with light armour and level 4 is piercing round and if you have too many workers you are going to start leaking

Lets talk about guys building together next
This scenario is more tricky because one player can get more of the kills then the other player but again the same 2 above suggestions should work

i.e if the one guy is leaking over 80% of his creeps his wisp upgrades should be limited per level because he is more than likely trying to almost pure income whilst the other guy builds mostly. If the other guy getting most of the creep kills tries to build lots of workers then mid will leak (which is enough penalty)

Wisp upgrade value vs tower value will also work. the one guys with hardly any kills (if he is genuinely noob and struggling to get kills) wont have much gold for workers anyway so limiting number of wisp upgrades wont affect him
the guy with lots of kills will have a high tower level but wont be able to build lots of workers without leaking

Lets talk about the last option of the 1 player mid trying to catch all the leaks.
Again the 2 suggestions work
the 1 player will leak everytihnig and have his wisp upgrades limited
and the other player will have to build lots to cover, if he tries to worker too much he'll leak

If you guys like my 2 suggestions, for limited income then I can expand on it with more details on number of workers allowed per level but I think the tower value vs wisp value is a simpler , better idea to implement.

There will be other good suggestions, these are just my 2 ideas

guy4 wrote:Maybe if we could focus on making suggestions for this limited incomer mode it would help EGZE.
I have a few suggestions (and I know PROC will have some good ones like he had above)

When I talk about limited incoming, am talking about limiting number of wisp upgrades per level when it looks like you are pure incoming or limiting number of wisp upgrades to tower value (so the players have to build if they want wisp upgrades)

Lets talk about guys building together next
This scenario is more tricky because one player can get more of the kills then the other player but again the same 2 above suggestions should work

i.e if the one guy is leaking over 80% of his creeps his wisp upgrades should be limited per level because he is more than likely trying to almost pure income whilst the other guy builds mostly. If the other guy getting most of the creep kills tries to build lots of workers then mid will leak (which is enough penalty)

Wisp upgrade value vs tower value will also work. the one guys with hardly any kills (if he is genuinely noob and struggling to get kills) wont have much gold for workers anyway so limiting number of wisp upgrades wont affect him
the guy with lots of kills will have a high tower level but wont be able to build lots of workers without leaking

Lets talk about the last option of the 1 player mid trying to catch all the leaks.
Again the 2 suggestions work
the 1 player will leak everytihnig and have his wisp upgrades limited
and the other player will have to build lots to cover, if he tries to worker too much he'll leak

Unfortunatelly I can't agree with u guy4 in almost anything. Firstly - I reckon all the modes which reduce freedom of players' choice e.g. -fm (killing worker while leaking) should be removed and I am sure they will. It's inadmissable to force players to play in 1 style. What's more imho creating too much "playable" mode which shortens some tactics such as pure incoming is also bad idea, because if hosts start liking it most games will be similar to each other. Modes shouldn't change much.

Building 2 on mid is greatest idea if u have good teammate, what's more the penatly of +1 armor is funny if ur enough good. Many times i played with buddy and it's uber easy. My buddy goes pure income and takes race with best aura/affecting other units spells - beast: Troll, Greymane. He places he's units I take ghost - spam forsaken ones with meridian addition and powerfull Gravekeeper. When he becomes rich he can make 2 dragon aspects + poisoning medusas and it's enough to rock the whole game. Opponents cannot go income cause they leak mucher and mucher each round.

Also, playing on a mid solo is possible. It's easiest on x2 - u take Komodo (optionally 2 wisps). On x3 u can take 2 phantoms or komodo as well, violet also pwns. It's also possible to handle it with regular units - trolls headhunters + healing guy. I may be wrong in some examples but it's deffiniatelly possible to handle. I many times played elemental and survived to even 20 wave. Then I died ofc, but buddy can appear when things are going bad. Of course porno send on key-waves is a problem but handleable.

To sum up, I think all tactics should be possible. None mode - either hg should shorten them. I will think about removing them on Insane mode which will be only mine... Just Insane, no stupid apmmhgggfmcbsmcm blablabla x15. Game will turn to be complicated without these modes I promise

-fm (killing worker while leaking)

I forgot about it. No workers now, I need fix -fm mode

Thanks this has given me more insight into what you are trying to achieve. So you want freedom for the player so he can choose to pure income or build as long as pure incoming isnt overpowered so that it ends games early and all games become like it.

The more we understand in what direction you want the map to head, the more we can direct our discussions . So what is your main aim for legion in this discussion, is it for the game to last longer (without doing too much to change the way the map is balanced now i.e. just some tweaking of modes etc)?

Also, would you want to stop things like building bottom feeder until the end of level 6 (because they weak on 7, better to sell them all and income then) and then selling everything to get an overpowered income? Just need to understand what kind of pure incomer you want to stop. Do you mind the pure incomer that just workers and doesnt help build until he has maxed workers?

If we understand the problem better that we are discussing I am sure we could come up with some nice ideas. I thought the problem was that people hated pure incomers and didnt want the map to be any more geared to helping pure incomers then it already is (thats why I came up with the limited income suggestion which would stop pure incomers).
Do you think you could put the problem we are trying to solve in 1 or 2 sentences, so we can discuss. Else discussing -GG becomes hard as we dont know what you are trying to achieve with it or what we should discuss about -GG mode.

PS: I think a lot of people would like the limit income mode as an option, as I know there is a lot of people that dont like pure incomers as they believe it ruins games. Would you consider a mode like that just to give hosts this option?

The problem is about principles. I am playing on Garena so that everyone can host its game, but most ppl play on BNet and there group of hosts decide which modes are playable and played, which are not . The worst thing lays in decision what the freedom is. Is it big amount of modes which host choose from and so he eliminates some game styles (-fm - pure incoming) or that situation when we play -ap and all styles of game are (or SHOULD BE) same effective. I don't know really .

What's more it's truth that if u have good team u can easily have 2 pure incomers and not leak. On -hg it's even good to leak cause ur king is powerfull and u can handle almost everything. Should we really interfare into these rules that much that pure incoming will become less/not effective? Should we give a limited number of wisp upgrades on key lvls? I doubt about it . I am convienced that ppl who believe pure incoming is v.good way to win shouldn't be the loudest voice here, maybe we ought to just make as many modes as we can and most game codes like ammhgsmfmcbcocmx3 ... this drives me mad but nowadays to have a "good" game u must "balance" game like this. Too many hosts believe in it which drives me crazy.

Imho most playing modes should be -ap or -ar. News like OH NEXT COMPELATELLY NEW AND BRINGING SO MUCH FRESHNESS MODE CHANGES THE GAME, HOW SWEET! ... is just a stupidity.

In Insane mode that will be NO MODES at all. At the start host choose between -nm and -im (normal mode, insane mode). Anyways pure incoming in Insane would cause death in first 10 rounds, even if there will be 3 pros and only 1 incomer. Besides getting to 20 lvl gonna be big achievement ;D. Also money providing by income will be greatly boosted on Insane mode. Maybe we will give Insane-players more option to upgrade their income to choose from + an option to resign from discount in income but having better king, cheaper king upgrades etc. Definiatelly more/better/different creeps to send, this gonna be a different game, believe me.

All new ideas are good but I am alone. I asked few members "Can you help me in triggers, jass", "whats that?" they say.

Of course I can do many -gg modes ex. +1 gold for creep, +normal bounty, like 2.7, divided, mulitplied... etc., but I am sure that most popular -gg will be mode which gives most bounty. I don't want to each game looks like -apmm......gg(best bounty)x3. Look on ver. 2.7

IMO current gg mode in changelog is ok.

IMO too.

EgZe talk to me on gadugadu, we gonna think about some new modes and possible removes. But plz shorten pure incoming a LITTLE BIT (max workers limit on each 10 wave).

Also make a note in new ver like this: -ap is recommended mode and when new towers realease -ar will be reccomended ok? Let that fools do whatever they want but show what's best in our opinions.

Also -fm (freedom mode) would be nice (no limits of workers, round 6 to build tier 6 etc.)

I agree it would be nice to have just a few modes like im (insane mode or just -ap and -ar) but what I am trying to get at, is what are the modes created really trying to achieve. What is the end goal when a mode is created and introduced?
Once you identify that then reducing the number of modes is easy and when modes are introduced they achieve the goal.

Sure I understand freedom of choice, is what you are looking for. A mode where players can do as they please. But because the players dont really understand the thinking behind modes they need more guidance. i.e like PROC's suggestion of insane mode or just having -ap and -ar (with the other modes defaulted to a set value). I.e -ap could mean -apggco. Then players wouldn't put in contradicting modes like hg and gg in the same title and say it balances the game (hg is for shorter games and gg for longer games see below for my explanation).

I am looking for a deeper goal. i.e. lets say your goal in every mode makes game easier or makes game harder (last shorter or last longer). for example
-ap in theory makes game easier (last longer) as players can choose the races
-ar in theory makes game slighty harder (last shorter) as people may get races they arent good with but visa versa with income
-new modes like -co which makes the game easier and last longer (especially for 3* waves)
- hg in theory makes games shorter as the leaking side gets penalized more
- mm in the theory makes games shorter as you can save and summon huge summons without it being obvious (even though it is easy to see when teams are saving and when they are sending by looking at income and watching summons each round)
- ns in theory makes game longer, as teams cant save for difficult levels
- gg in theory will lengthen games as helps team that is leaking
etc

My preference is to go for modes that allows the game to last as long as possible with the game still being tough enough that you given a challenge. There is nothing more satisfying then an intense game lasting until the end where I side narrowly wins. With an extra 9 Levels added it will be more difficult to get to the final battle (everyone will want to get to final battle). I mean those extra 9 levels are going to be awesome and a final battle even better so I would assume the movement would be for longevity of games. So if I were creating modes my goal would be to create modes that assist tough long games.

I dont know if the standard of play on the South African server is weak but Most 3 * waves games dont go past level 13 currently but If the game gets passed 21 (21 is an easish level in 1 * mode but a hardish level in 3* mode) then they go to level 29 or 31. So I thats why I prefer to choose modes to make games last longer. If I chose harder modes I hate to think when games would end.

PS: This is just purely looking at modes and how it can influence long tough games being achieved. There are other variables like "players" which have a greater impact on the length of the game but modes does assit quite a bit in lengthening or shortening a game. The best mix I have found is bgalancing team with average players and "pros". The avergae players tend to overbuild in the beginning covering small leaks on hard levels whilst the pros get high income and handle the later levels with a high tower value. If the mix of players isnt right the pros over income and kill each other because of large summons and trying to out do each others income by building the bare minimum to kill the hard levels.

Also another variable is difficulty of waves and strength of towers (i.e. really overpowered towers makes game easier and really strong waves makes game shorter), but tweaking these variables is too time consuming and really hard to balance perfectly (hence modes are needed).

Just my 2 cents but I want to understand the purpose you have in mind for making modes.
PS: I no its bad but I love lots of modes even though I know PROC is right for wanting less modes. The Modes EGZE develops are so cool. Like this no collison size mode looks like its going to be really nce

Yea, mostly ur right guy, but in 1 thing I reckon ur not.

-co doesn't make game easier either does longer because affaects also towers which also get stuck. In fact it balances games when 80% of melee creeps can fight simultanously not just 40%. It's good and should be implemented in a game code.

My postulats:
- Collision off in normal game (-co remove) - game's a bit harder but it empowers melee units and gives some little protection to backliners (more creeps can attack frontliners - less can attack backs)
- -fm remove (no need in punishing incomers)
- -gg remove (our order is "NO NOOBS!", don't u remember egZe?) - incomers have harder life
- Nerfed -ns in normal game (-mm games problem) max wood/turn is 40 (checking at the end of each one) - game easier, no rude savings, incomers aren't that dangerous

I think it's best idea to develop these things and in my versions this is the way it will work.

okay for ghost -CO doesnt make a difference you are right. But for shadow and mech it makes a huge difference (mech the most). mech units in 3* mode ran around alot. It was mechs biggest weakness, captain and admirals have terrible collision sizes and ran aroud, even pyro's start running aorund after a while (and the mech golems forgotten their names) ran around big time too. In 1 * mode you can minimize the mech collison problem a bit by building your units with a good formation and then in later levels spamming their air unit but in 3 * mode it becomes unavoidable in the late levels. When -CO comes out you must test it, you'll check a major diff income. Shadows core unit (early to mid game is the gate guard) but its collison size is terrible (especially because 1 gateguard is 2 units). You can't use the 215 gold unit (forgotten its name) if you have used gateguards because all it does is run around. Hades the collison size isnt too bad but it is 3 units in one which does make collisons worse. Both these races benefit probably the most form -co. races like ghost wont benefit much.

-removing -fm sounds good never used that mode anyways
-gg is nice the way it is I rate will be a waste to remove it (its prob a good idea to leave it in as nerfed for a version at least then if you and egze arent happy with it remove it)
-nerfed ns and max wood per turn sounds good

I'm against -co mode, because then splash damage would doo too much harm to the units... its just fine that the units grow larger each level and thus splashdamage doenst work this good against later levels...
so I'm against -co mode

Ha! Running around as u nicely noticed is a problem, but of AI! Towers have the command to attack low hp creeps. I already told egZe to change it for melee creeps and make them attacking the closest opponent. Range should kill low hps firstly it's reasoned cause they can refer their attacks almost anywhere. Hm. bettie noticed interesting fact - thx gonna think about that.

bettie wrote:I'm against -co mode, because then splash damage would doo too much harm to the units... its just fine that the units grow larger each level and thus splashdamage doenst work this good against later levels...
so I'm against -co mode

-co works for fighters only, creeps have collision.

Aaaaah. Good to know

Yeah it makes a lot of sense that melee targets the closest unit and range the low hp units. The problem with targetting the lowest hp unit with range is that they all attack it (because like you said they can attack other units easily), this can "waste" a lot of damage as a unit with almost no hp can have like 7 ranged units attacking it and way "overkilling" it, especially when you have ranged untis that have a high damage amount, it waste a lot of potential attack.
The way around it would probably take too much code not sure? i.e. if the target is on low hp but has 2 or more units attacking it then target the next lowest hp unit (this is only applicable for range, melee should always attack the closest unit)

The trick I use against the ranged levels like 8 and 12 is I build a few weak units in front, which get way overkilled and the creeps waste their dmg potential and this allows for the round to be cleared with less value because the bigger melee units can get close enough to attack without getting slaughtered and the range units are already attacking them. I suppose there is no way around this for creeps becuase whether they attack the closest unit or the lowest hp unit or the unit that is attacking them first (like sometimes a range units attacks them first even though its not the closest unit) and then the range unit is focussed on first but some of the wave.

It's the thoery guy4. In fact only melee works badly. Ranges are ok. I understand the mechanism of wasting dmg by overkilling but even if it happens it doesn't make pros leaking ;P Changing 1 factor from Attack low hp to Attack closest is not that hard I guess.

possible solution for pure lumber :

Problem : game over because other team send warlock/kraken on lvl7/8
Solution : add restrict level on Advance Barrack, you can only buy from this barrack after level 10

Problem : Pure lumber is too rich (Goblin with 100+ income at lvl10, and 1000 income after lvl20)
Solution: reduce income for summon(eg 100lumber=3 income), raise income for upgrade king ( 100 lumber = 5 income).
reason 1: this will slow down their income rate in early game because lumber rate is low and they have to wait 100 for upgrade rather than buy summon every 20/40 lumber. it have small effect on late game
reason 2: king will max quickly so they can't earn high income form upgrade anymore. this will slow down their income late late game (eg, 1000 income is way too unbalance,)
hopefully after this change, income for player with same reduce from 100->70(lvl10), and from 1000->700(lvl20+)