Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Heros would be great if you allowed them from wave 1, but didn't have any that were expressly and obviously better than all of the others like the dark ranger making waves 1-4 even more of a breeze than usual and most of the others being entirely shit.

They should be buffs and buffs only, and only buffs that the aura creeps don't already give, so trueshot aura is good.

THORNS AURA could be amazing, but it'd have to be balanced very carefully to be useful, but not super OP and destroy early game, so maybe wave reqs before you can hit certain levels of it, or even better... use percentages instead of flat, and use flat for uber late game where percentages aren't as much as they should be. You would have to have a second skill for late game because of it though. One does not simply make a percentage skill into a flat skill without changing skills entirely.

Vampiric aura is good, but NONE OF THE AURA HEROS SHOULD BE MELEE. THEY WERE WAY TOO FRAGILE FOR THAT. Up to 15-20% maybe?

Devotion Aura on a larger scale that Goliaths could be good, but like the Dark Ranger it would need to be carefully balanced to be low enough power early game not to trivialize it like Dark Ranger did. If it even gets rid of one damage before wave 4 it's too powerful, as those waves set the income pace for the entire game, and one damage there is a massive percentage of their health. It should scale exponentially for late game though, but the stopping point would need to be carefully planned.

Unholy Aura could be fantastic, but I think you'd have to find a way to make the life regen flat for it to be good, as it seems that you have the life regen of pretty much every unit set to 0. Every ounce of movespeed we can get is nice, so yeah.

Brilliance Aura would be useful if you eliminated the cooldown on Hades using its summon. It'd also be useful if it was a flat regen bonus which would allow hydra to triple shot around 1.5-2x faster. It'd be useful in niche, but in that niche it'd be amazing for DPS or healing(Tree of Life might become viable with a powerful brilliance aura or buffs to the amount it heals).

Degeneration Aura could be VERY interesting. It could be similar to Ghost, but destroy mana to nullify certain summons. Its range would have to be huge, but not huge enough to reach other lanes. It would have to be a powerful mana degen, or it could simply strip armor and movespeed to make things more easy to kill. It can go all over the place, and have pretty interesting downsides if you make it powerful enough including having a weaker version of it affect your units too at higher levels as a tradeoff for so much power. It might make a degen+brilliance aura combo REQUIRED for late-game due to someone building Hades or something that needs the mana, or you having to cherry pick units to avoid that tradeoff as much. Degeneration aura is probably the most interesting aura out of all of these personally.

Well, i have an idea. If you end up not using heroes, why not make your builder become a hero after lv 30 and then get teleport to the king? Could be nice. Every builder would represent a hero, or maybe you get a random one. Could also be nice if we had any use for them during the match course, something like Zoator's TD, where you had to use heroes to kill some creeps for gold in a determined area from time to time, while you'r building your maze against incoming creeps. That would work out like a mini game. Maybe pause the game while it happens, to avoid laggy issues. Some people say that legion is already a too long of a game, but it would be like a once or twice thing in match, just like arena. Maybe make it to be like, or you have regular arena (west creeps x east creeps) or you get to do something else, like this mini game hero-thing, maybe get the king involved as well.   



About sunder' post:

I believe heroes are very strong already, they bring much more to game than just a bunch of auras. it's true they are much more strong if you could have 'em since the match's start. but only being able to build them after 100 value it's not that bad also, because u get that value around level 6~7, which in my opinion is cool. IMHO, this stage of the game you get more gold than you need in to build(like levels 1~2~3), so then you can choose between lumber and hero, also, there ain't many heroes that are that strong at point of the game (besides dark ranger).

Dark rangers aura is really game breaking at the very first levels, 1 less dmg point makes the difference, especially when creeps hit for like 6~8 dmg. Damage nerf aura plus corruption armor skill, It's possible the best hero around. I believe that maybe it don't need the corruption armor skill at all, another hero might have a better use for that, like brilliance aura hero, which IMO is very underpowered because of cooldowns and because it does not help units with no mana.) Dark ranger is anti-boss and anti demon-aura. Not many heroes get that cool titles. Dark ranger it is a good as ghost builder.

About life steal being melee range, I believe it's ok. it is one of the strongest auras also. But it could have some kinda of auto-ress skill, like a second life. I mean, it's an evil undead hero right.

Brilliance aura also increases dps of phantoms, disciples, zeuzes, demi-human docs and some other units, but I believe it could be a little more strong, but I wouldn't know. In end game ,the effectiveness of auras kinda depends on your total value, and brilliance aura only helps spell based units. Also some units like fenix and meridian, they make it more harder to balance things out, 'cause they use mana as health points.


Thorn hero and Vampiric aura are nice, but thorn doesn't seem to be strong as ToK thorn's to be honest.
Vampiric aura life regen seems to be really weak, but move speed increase is really neat. It's like an anti-lag hero.

About degeneration aura. I believe It would too op, and it doesn't even have to that strong, since one less mana point would be enough to prevent most units from using spells. I believe also it would've to be a melee hero, because think man, it makes more sense being melee (aside balance issues). Like if you did meet this hero in real life, you would feel like there's some kinda of bad and evil aura around, but you would just feel if you get close to him. Not from a far. But that's just my opinion. Might be nice if he had heartstopper aura as well. Would be a good candidate for most used hero.

I believe heroes system is nice because makes regular builder stronger and by it, makes them more competitive against hybrid/prophet. You could say :" hey sucker, you just have to change builder during match !!1", but I would answer that I don't like much to change builder, it spoils the races individuality, makes all feel like prophet.


btw, I think ph mode is really cool. Makes me wish there was another builder like prophet and hybrid, like, i was thinkin' about it these days. Since legion keeps track on gathered lumber, why not make a new "prophet" mode, where it rolls automatically based on how many lumber all players have gathered? like, when game hits 1000 wood gathered, BAM, everybody gets re-rolled. and then again for some times. So in a game with a lot of "pro-players" you would have more rolls, a noob game would have less.

I know its hard to implement things on legion mega 'cause of mega is such a lagged map. I know its time-consuming and everybody does have a life, but if we keep the ball rolling, I think upgrading the play experience it's more important than ever getting to the end of this years-long beta.

Good day to you all. =)



edit: should I move this post to suggestion board? I feel like our community is so small, that's unless someone makes a huge mistake, I don't even bother at all.

Hi guys

Thanks for your ideas.. It all sounds very interesting and we may include some of it, when we are ready to start working on the new system.

The idea of using your builder as a hero that you can control doesn't really fit into legion td though.. There are alot of "hero" games in wc3 where controlling/upgrading your hero, is what the game is about, but I'm afraid that isn't a part of the concept of Legion TD.. It made me realise though that it could be a good idea to use the same model as the builder got for the hero.. Every race will therefore have it's own "hero"

Anyways, feel free to share your thoughts

Best Regards
Kongk

Hi there!

First of all, thank you for this fantastic work! Cant wait to see more of it!

Apart from fixing clockwerks stun , my favorite innovation is PH! We needed it badly!

One question, "end level" and doom bosses? They don't fit in somehow, that kind of ending seems lacking more than refreshing sometimes. Or I'm mistaken? End game should be heavily based on attrition wars? Also, is it possible to kill doom bosses if im not mistaken we almost killed one few days ago?

regards

Hey there

Glad to hear you like the new betas.

Endgame is indeed not perfect atm.. We have tried some different things in B7 (which will be released soon) to prevent lag and the blocking issue, but the general endgame concept will probably remain as it is.. I'm convinced that with the right changes and balance, it will become very good..

About dooms.. Yep, it is possible to kill those evil creatures, but not easy! It is not possible to survive the level though.. When you kill a "doom" another "doom" is ready to take his place.. But gj killing one, it happens very rarely

Best Regards
Kongk

Cant wait for new betas then.

You are right Doom bosses should fit in better when you tweak lvl 34 and prevent blocking.



Keep up with the good work!

Thanks guys. I'll try to respond to all your comments in various topics, NERV and other people, when I have some more time

Beta 8 has been uploaded.

Np Saucer, I don't really feel the need of an answer, knowing you guys read every post is enough, tbh betas are going out much faster than I thought it would be.

now, some immediate feedback: 

- paladins healers are receiving life steal aura, although when wave starts they lose it, so no big deal.
- Dragon spawn tower has Melee attack on it, and is also receiving life steal aura, which can be very misleading, 'cause when waves starts they get to be 180 melee range and doesn't have life steal on them.
Both of these towers are range when wave start and they benefit from helicopter aura, so i guess the life steal thing is really a minor bug.

-Tier 1 Hybrid description is messed up without the bars.

-The new goblin unit seems weak/over-expensive, no foodcost and high damage doesn't make it so attractive for first levels, i'll have to test it out on a real game. btw maybe change it's name to Kobold? or something? he looks like a kobold to me.

-Beast tier 1 unit has a typo on it's name: "GRnoll".

-Hell yeah, Summon speed aura is back , most op summon ever for mega i believe. I hope the 8% attack speed ain't too much tho, specially on late game levels. The movement speed is ok and very strong, it usually beat the lags and make waves much more aggressive.
Also, still on barracks topic: there seems to be something wrong with the advanced barracks, It never changes.

I like the changes on seer/fenix, i hope element will be more stronger on late game now.

Good thing you guys removed -li, it didn't make any sense as a mode.


Since you guys are doing so many balances, I would like to suggest a buff on harlot/mistress: It's the only pierce/heavy armor (which is cool) in game and mistress ability doesn't really fit well with other Demi-Human units, i feel like that because stunned units by bigfoot stomp won't miss any attacks at all, and units slowed down by Minotaur won't let mistress take full advantage of her skill. The only levels mistress could really shine are flying levels, but her heavy armor makes her not so good on those levels.

And about Undead, without the heroes it feels very broken, you can play still, but you'll know for sure that you always will be the weakest link on your team, and you can't really go over-value for every level, and any enemy summon is very hard. Maybe reducing a little bit the cost of some (if not all) units? More units will mean more strength, I believe.

I have also noticed quite a number of mistakes in the description, but those are mostly due to them not being updated when you change units. 

Loving the changes, nerfs, LOVING the 16th lumberjack upgrade.    The only thing in your changelog that doesn't make sense is the aspect costing 360 gold, he's just not worth that much.

And I have to disagree with NERV, undead is now very competitive due to the change in meatwagon. That tower's level of usability is equivalent to turret's, if not more. Having between 7/5 and 7/7 before lvl 10 makes you very useful and competitive, I must say.

Hey Guys

Thank you for your immediate feedback.. It is much appreciated

I/We will try to fix the bugs you mention for the next beta-update.

Aura Issues:

Thank you for reporting the aura issues @Nerv.. I guess some of the things you mention go back to 1.6.. I will try to take a look at it, ty

New tier 1 tower on goblin: 

First of all let me say that it was made in a hurry and hasn't really been tested.. I tested it once to check if the ability worked, and in the proces i discovered that it is able to handle lvl 1 and half lvl 2 by himself, which is quite good for a 230 gold tower?

Ye, it does indeed look like a "kobold", but naming it kobold doesn't really fit the goblin race, does it?

_____

Undead race: Hmm, i must admit that i haven't really played that race (mostly play hybrid or prophet).. But if you guys have some concrete suggestions, plz let me know

Harlot/Mistress: Seems like a fine suggestion, will take a look at it, thanks


Advanced Barracks: What exactly do you mean here? 


And yea, @Blackjohnny, if you bump into any conctrete tooltips mistakes, plz let med know



Anyhow, i'm glad that you guys like the changes and take part in the debates/discussions about the new beta, thanks again  

Best Regards
Kongk

Of the top of my head, it's this:
-Hydra's damage description (this is old) and mini hydras hp description
-Ogre basher's attack speed description
I'll report if i find more.

I would really like an elaboration for changing dragon aspect's cost to 360g. It seems a bit off to me.

With the goblin's servant, you basically made a weird tier 2 in a tier 1's place.

And as for the undead issue, reducing the cost of Guardian of death to 300 would spice things up (but you would have to nerf him a bit, tho, reducing his hp to 1400 would be ok).

Best regards, BlackJohnny

Hello hello

I only tested the map on debug to be honest, didn't play it with ppl, anyway.... i wasn't able to make advance barracks change during the levels it was supposed to (level 10 and level 15 i believe). so all my games i had 0 summons on advance barracks, really weird. and then on the final levels, when endgame barracks showd up, the advance barracks stood there still, with 0 stocks. I know already that single player does not resemble a real game, but was already late when you guys posted.

Guardian of death for 300 gold seems nice I guess( It would have to be balanced), that would bring up new builds, and  I like the idea of having multiples builds with each builder. I didn't feel wagons to be so strong like that, but I certainly could use more practice with undead, It's been a long time without playing regular builders, most of game i play nowadays are prophet only. And when i see undead i usually run in the other direction, oh my, i tried so hard to make it work on 3.41 that now i think i am traumatized for life. Mmm, i shall give another try playing undead. It's been a while.

about goblin new unit:
I tested the new goblin unit on debug mode for a bit (just on the first 3 levels), will leak to dino/whelp on level 1 with only 230 value, I didn't mix it with other units. well, with 70 gold left i couldn't really use many goblin units anyway.
Half level 2 for 230 value, i dunno, It think it's ok for a medium armor unit with high damage and skill (i would expect a bit more from such value on level 2), IMO it still feels expensive, I mean, you won't have much gold left to income and to mix with other goblin towers....

The fact that it looks like a tier 2 unit on tier 1 slot makes it very nice for hybrid, but i think tier1 on hybrid ain't got much use at all. And you almost never will roll a tier1 on hybrid, it is very occasional.
Maybe if you nerf it strength a bit, to somewhat like 200 gold? Maybe make it have 2 upgrades, like demi-human mutants? Mutants are awesome. The reflect skill does 1 dmg only at early game (it works cool with turret's splash at early), and later in game I believe the unit won't be strong enough to make such difference, so I think the reflect skill maybe shouldn't be taken into price consideration. Maybe remove that and give them power to summon a little goblin servant? ahaha that would be cool.
About the kobold-name thing, you might as well be right friendo. So, If you consider changing his skills, maybe you'll consider changing his name to Goblin Master.  would fit the whole summon thing i suggested.
Anyway, my tests only concerns the very first levels and It is indeed a lot better unit than the landmines  , and i was about to make a suggestion thread to remove landmines and add something else. Nice you made a move first.



Aspect of dragon for 360 gold seems a bit odd for me as well, I think he is the weakest of all dragons (he is sure stronger now, but not enough to be worth more than Blue dragon). And, isn't in beast description that beast have the cheapest towers in game?

Also shadow description says high damage fighters with good offense/defense abilities. I don't think shadow has high damage units, but it's really good offense/defensive units with lots of summons. The highest damage unit for shadow would be the life steal aura upgraded? I think the support tower can't be taken in consideration for high damage.

About the 16th lumberjack upgrade, I shall try to test this, seems to be a strong upgrade. At the first moment i read 'bout it, i didn't like it at all, and my very first thought about it was that would be nice if it have some sort of score requirement, so mid builds wouldn't be able to reach solo players income/value no more. Maybe this should be taken in consideration.


Also, I would like to ask if you guys have any intentions of changing the load cover for 3.5 release or maybe add a new race? perhaps make use of merc unit models?

Cya'll and take care!

Hi guys

Again, thank you very much for your comments/feedback..

I don't really have much time, so i will answer very firmly..

-Advanced Barracks: Seems to be a -debug glitch, haven't had any problems in public games

-Dragon Aspect: Will reduce the price to 340 (some people say 320 is perfect and some say 360 is perfect, so it will be 340  )

-New goblin unit: Thanks, will take a look at it.

-Guardian of Death: Noted, ty

-Shadow race description: I see your point, will take a look at it, thanks

There won't be added any new races, but Saucer is indeed working on a new loading screen for final release.

Best Regards
Kongk

New update! Didn't play much, but i think that bug with hybrid and unit disappearing is gone. Great job!


P.S. How hard would it be to implement option to chose which spawn point will continue to spawn waves after one player drops? Cross builds are very common after anti-stuck bug was fixed, and when one player DCs, other guy is usually lost too. I know this could be exploited, but, maybe its possible to make voting system, for example " blue player lost connection, therefore because they've cross built, red player wants to receive creeps from blue spawn point instead of red spawn point, will you allow this? "

NoHeal4u wrote:New update! Didn't play much, but i think that bug with hybrid and unit disappearing is gone. Great job!


P.S. How hard would it be to implement option to chose which spawn point will continue to spawn waves after one player drops?  Cross builds are very common after anti-stuck bug was fixed, and when one player DCs, other guy is usually lost too. I know this could be exploited, but, maybe its possible to make voting system, for example " blue player lost connection, therefore because they've cross built, red player wants to receive creeps from blue spawn point instead of red spawn point, will you allow this? "

That's a risk you take. Be sure your connection is stable or don't play risky.

Okay so....is it suppose to be possible to get passed lvl 33? I'm really not sure the difficulty increase was needed at all. Even with 21k values I'm not seeing games get passed 33 and losing most thier units to 32. What kind of values would be needed to potentially beat lvl 34 now? Before it seemed like if the team was all 20k+ you had a chance to get passed lvl 34 but most likely wouldn't clear all of wave 34 without great unit combinations. Now I'm kind of confused as to whether 35 is really suppose to be the end because the values and unit combinations needed to get there seem farfetched imo. I do think that lvl 33 being the end lvl on most competative games is at least more conclusive then the previous versions 34/35 interaction.

As far as I'm concerned lvl 33 is the end of them game but I'm sure with really high values and great units you might be able to barely survive it only to have 34 finish your last few units. Anyways, I haven't played too many games in the new version to the end but I'm just not seeing anything even close to surviving lvl 33.

Damn my first Post seems to dissapear.


The 7/16 Lumber upg is nice thing, if u reach it before lvl 20 it makes endgame harder.

The Goblin T1 unit should get reduce cost.

I agree to reduce the cost of Dragon Aspect upg.

Yes it seems that its hard to pass the Warlords now...

Wolverins seems good, the finishing blow work nice. Just should be 15% chance or Wolverins maybe att little faster.

And last but not least.... the Colt (the upg also) need more range.

Best Regards Rockabilly

Hi guys

First of all thank you all for posting your ideas/suggestions/ worrys etc. It is all very appreciated

I will have to make a quick and short answer again

@NoHeals4u, sunderkeenin: I get your points.. We will take a look at what is possible and see what can be done to prevent abuse.. If we can't prevent abuse, we will proberly not do it, but i have a good feeling about this

@Nortan: I totally agree.. My goal is to make "doom" level an achievement to reach, but it should not be impossible, as it is now.. Will take a look at it for next beta

@Rockabilly[UC]: Thanks, noted

I already posted this on the ENT forums, but dunno if you will check it anytime soon, so I'll write it here aswell.

First, thanks for working on the map, but after trying the map out I dislike many changes.

B5:
* Meat Wagon, War Maschine and Dwarven Engineer -- Made "splash" ability work on Air units too (area of effect slightly reduced though).
Makes Engineer totally overpowered, along with the nerfes on other towers Engineer is now by far the best starting/income tower, while also being very strong at later levels (Mutants). Either nerf them (60 or 70 upgrade gold) or disable the AoE on flying creeps again.

B6:
* Mudman Cooldown decreased to 1.1.  
Also way too strong, one of the best DPS/Gold value, while also having a big HP pool. Should be 1.2 or 1.25.

* Stock Replenish delay decreased for Infernal and Demon.
Not sure how much it was reduced (got numbers for me?), but imo it was fine as it was. Being able to send 2 demons shouldn't be made easier.

* Maximum Stock reduced to 1 and Stock Replenish delay strongly increased for Milita, Bowman, Ghoul and Warrior after level 9. This will prevent people from massing.
You already know ENT doesn't like this, but so be it.

* Furbolg nerfed and lumber cost increased (priority slightly increased as well).
This makes sending on level 2 pretty useless, as people won't be able to send a Furbolg on level 2 anymore. I don't think there was any problem with Furbolg, so I don't understand this change (nerf, ok if you want, but leave the lumber costs at 140)

B7:
Mercenary and -li removed completely.
Great

* Golem -- Reduced attack speed to 1.1.
Might be ok, but I would set it to 1.15

* Aqua -- Reduced hp by 50.
Aqua is a fun tower, which only is good in the early game, so this is a too big nerf imo. Make it 175 HP instead.

* Elite Archer -- Reduced hp by 100.
Also too much (for example 2 Elite + 1 Archer leak level 4 now, which is kinda meh). 600 HP would be fine imo.

* Dragon Aspect -- Price increased to 360 gold.
I see no reason for a nerf.

* Goblin Land Mines -- replaced with another tier 1 tower (will probably need balance adjustment).
Bad DPS, bad HP, too expensive, not good enough skill. I would lower the upgrade cost to 170. Even then I'm not sure if it would be useful and it generally doesn't fit to the Goblin builder.

* Soul of villian -- Violate armor penalty reduced to -3.
Ok, but then Blood Warlock should follow.

* Changed prophet re-roll prices to the following:
-- 1st re-roll = 50 lumber (starting price)
-- 2nd re-roll = 25 gold, 100 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
-- 3rd re-roll = 50 gold, 150 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
-- 4th re-roll = 75 gold, 200 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
-- 5th re-roll = 100 gold, 250 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
Sucks, why not allow people to reroll on the first level if they have bad towers (without throwing them back alot)? 0 50/50 100/100 ... was better. Allows a free early reroll while making a hard decision later on

What's the costs and effect of lumberjack level 16?

You guys probably play different than us ENTers, so maybe you don't agree with my points. I would be happy if you tell the reasoning behind the changes made which I discussed above. Nonetheless I love the non balance related fixes, like auto-Antistuck, no Merc, no -li and flat/even area. If you could implement those features to the 3.41 version it would be great.

Offtopic:
People on this site play on UCW bot right? Are there any "high" games outside of pubs and if yes, which version are you playing?

Hello

I must admit that haven't really spent any time on ENT forums..  I already receive feedback alot of different places, and would really like to centre it to become only a few places (for various reasons).. I think Saucer drops by the ENT forum every now and then (not that often though).. Anyhow, you guys must not be forgotten, but i would really appreciate if you could post your threads here.. It is alot easier for all of us..

I know that most ENT players don't like the new betas (mainly because of -ns and the "no spamming" initiative), which is quite a shame i my opinion. "-ns" was made optional to make the new betas appeal to ENT players as well.. It is no secret that saving lumber is an important part of the games on ENT bots.. I strongly believe that ENT players could start enjoying these new betas as well though, and i'm very interested in hearing what you guys have to say..

So feel very free to post whatever feedback you may have here, and all feedback is highly appreciated

NOTE: I will comment on your feedback in a few days @diablo (if not tommorrow then thursday).. I'm quite busy these days, but i can already say that i agree with you on alot of the things  

Ty for posting your feedback here as well, and by that also seeking contact

Best Regards
Kongk

Diablo_ wrote:Offtopic:
People on this site play on UCW bot right? Are there any "high" games outside of pubs and if yes, which version are you playing?

You're probably thinking of Clan UC, which we work closely with, yes

UCW, on the other hand, are just a bunch of troublemakers and they host fake maps.

Diablo_ wrote:
* Furbolg nerfed and lumber cost increased (priority slightly increased as well).
This makes sending on level 2 pretty useless, as people won't be able to send a Furbolg on level 2 anymore. I don't think there was any problem with Furbolg, so I don't understand this change (nerf, ok if you want, but leave the lumber costs at 140)

* Elite Archer -- Reduced hp by 100.
Also too much (for example 2 Elite + 1 Archer leak level 4 now, which is kinda meh). 600 HP would be fine imo.

* Soul of villian -- Violate armor penalty reduced to -3.
Ok, but then Blood Warlock should follow.

* Changed prophet re-roll prices to the following:
-- 1st re-roll = 50 lumber (starting price)
-- 2nd re-roll = 25 gold, 100 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
-- 3rd re-roll = 50 gold, 150 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
-- 4th re-roll = 75 gold, 200 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
-- 5th re-roll = 100 gold, 250 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
Sucks, why not allow people to reroll on the first level if they have bad towers (without throwing them back alot)? 0 50/50 100/100 ... was better. Allows a free early reroll while making a hard decision later on

What's the costs and effect of lumberjack level 16?

Hiho mister Diablo_!   


Furbolg stats:
390 hp medium armored / 31 - 45 Normal Fast melee dmg / +15% damage reduction / Fast Movement Speed / 160 wood / 6 income
Dino stats:
275 hp medium armored /  31 - 35 Pierce Slow dmg with 250 range / no skill / Slow Movement Speed / 120 wood / 6 income
Whelp stats:
260 hp Light armored / 37 - 43 Pierce Fast melee dmg / Flying / Average Movement Speed / 100 wood / 5 income

I still think furbolg is one of the best summons you can send at early (i'd rather use whelps), mostly because your units will be busy killing creeps with lower hp than 390, while he simply destroys everything you have, at the same time making your units deal less dmg, and tbh, 160 wood at level 1 ain't much really.
If you send a whelp at level 1 and enemy team leaks it, someone on your team will most likely have enough time to send that furbolg before round 1 finishes. I know that is possible because i have finished level 1 with 10 income before (1 whelp sent at level 1 and another one for level 2).

One thing can spoil your plans: you send whelp at level 1 and it fails to leak, and round finishes and you have more than 80 wood, like having 87 wood, then -ns will steal this 7 wood of yours and you won't be able to send anything offensive at level 2. =( 

@KongK:
I would like to suggest an increase on -ns limit wood on the very early levels to 100, so you could at least send whelps every wave.



About the blood warlocks, i agree with you, In my perception, they are a little stronger than their similar friend, the Villain. Weird thing is they have same value. But I believe Ghost has an advantage on other races because spell dmg deals 125% dmg to all armor, so maybe that's why.

First prophet re-roll for 50 wood ain't much of a drawback really, is only 2,5 income, and on b4 i have played a lot of games in which i had to reroll at level 1 and start the match with 0 income, but with high wisps at early levels you can cover it really fast. And is not like you can't play with a bad roll anyway, the game gives you more gold than it's require to beat levels, that's why Kongk and Saucer try to balance units. Anyway, at least now you can try 2 rerolls on level 1 if you like. Still, prophet is stronger than regular races. I would rather have the last rolls expensive as they were before, because you can still get tons of auras, which will pump your army strengths much beyond your value.

As for mudman/aquas: I don't enjoy so much the nerfs on early game units on elements, but anyway.... I believe it's ok to change things a bit. Otherwise 3.5 would be just as same as 3.41.

I like the new Engineers, it opens new early builds for Demi, so I guess it makes DemiHuman more competitive. But maybe they have too fast attack speed for a splash-attack unit. I feel like they lose they efficiency very fast, tho.

Regarding Elite Archers: 470 value all wearing light armor, dealing pierce dmg, against level 4 piercing dmg/heavy armor, I think it is expected to leak, righto? I believe people got to much used to imba archers. For real, they were very very imbalanced damage dealers capable of doing their own tanking and kill, beating all other units by far.
If i'm not mistaken, on one of the 3.41 betas, HuanAk nerf'd Elites archer's to 600hp, and it was tested and proven that they were still overpowered.

Diablo_ wrote:
What's the costs and effect of lumberjack level 16?

400 gold / +3 wisp wood / I believe it has the same research time of the 15th upgrade. Should pay out in less than 10 minutes or so.

Whats your opinion on levels from 25-30? With 7/16 and increased income (which is a nice addition) those levels seem to be underpowered, no one leaks them anymore? Small buff could increase the tension.   

I agree with mr Diablo_ he is right with everything except Master Archer which is good balanced with 550hp ++++

Soul of villain should not be nerfed you are making ghost race even worse than it was before while imba orc race still have warlock(more hp than villain so dont say it cost more without any reason....) and still got -4 armor reduce wtf???????????)

That new unit 200 upg is wayyyyyy to much.

Aquas cost raise to 55 or even 60 but do not cut 1/4 life.....

Meat Wagon and dwarven engineer wayyy to strong now. Wagons can make 5 with 590 value! and enginners can go riddiculous early game income+they are good on mid/late game when upg to mutants.

Thunderbird Imba aswell should have stayed at 155 and 1 food i see no reason of latest change ,looks like you did not rly tested how it works with reduced attack speed:)

Dragon Aspect i would say 340 is better than 360 which is a bit too much for single build.

About wolverines rework....again kind of not balanced now i tested them and it was something like : lvl 3 value 450(1 wolv+2x orc) send archer+milita ~~40% times leaked something, lvl 7 1100 value( 4xwolves+1orc) 60-70% chance to leak without any send , lvl 10 leak because  of no crit on bosses lvl 12 even harder than it was before, lvl 14 3000 value leaked 2 of 3 test games without any send!!!!!!!, lvl 17 4250 value pure wolves leaked 3 of 3 test games without any send!!!!  There was no reason to rework wolves when they have no crit on bosses...

About 7/16 cost 400 gold only and give +3 wood... i rly dont understand why you add something like that you made end levels even easier for NS games than it was before. I said that on other forum need to make 20-30 rounds harder istead of adding unreasonable 7/16.

nerf wrote:About the blood warlocks, i agree with you, In my perception, they are a little stronger than their similar friend, the Villain. Weird thing is they have same value. But I believe Ghost has an advantage on other races because spell dmg deals 125% dmg to all armor, so maybe that's why.

Spell dmg is spell dmg if it says 100 dmg its 100 dmg  and have nothing to do with %%

And for myself i ask again add Dark Priest more hp!!!! 690hp unarmored cost 325 and have lower DPS than for example Dragon Hawk which cost 320 have 1480 hp and medium armor..............its SICK



And

Diablo_ wrote:People on this site play on UCW bot right? Are there any "high" games outside of pubs and if yes, which version are you playing?

We play privs on UC bot mostly on beta maps sometimes we play 3.41( 1v1 games with me, cyto, krrot and mby 2-3 others^^)

tauqeti wrote:

nerf wrote:About the blood warlocks, i agree with you, In my perception, they are a little stronger than their similar friend, the Villain. Weird thing is they have same value. But I believe Ghost has an advantage on other races because spell dmg deals 125% dmg to all armor, so maybe that's why. Besides that, I would like to add that Villain debuff lasts almost 4 times longer than his counterpart Blood orc Warlock, some may see an advantage on this

Spell dmg is spell dmg if it says 100 dmg its 100 dmg  and have nothing to do with %%

And for myself i ask again add Dark Priest more hp!!!! 690hp unarmored cost 325 and have lower DPS than for example Dragon Hawk which cost 320 have 1480 hp and medium armor..............its SICK

Yeah, I'm sorry, I guess what I meant is that spell damage would surpass +# armor bonus and if you think about fortified armor, it does deals, indeed, 125% more damage than other sources, except for siege damage. =) Against other armor types would deal average 115% more damage.

About dark Priest dps, i guess you must have forgotten about the 45 spell damage per sec/8secs + 25% slow attack speed debuff. Which roughly would be 179 dps, against Dragon Hawk 155 dps. When spell is over Dark Priest deals merely 134 damage per second.

Dark Priest: Roughly 95 dps against fortified armor plus 45 spell dmg. Receive 100% dmg from siege attacks.
Dragon Hawk: Rougly 105 dps against fortified. Receive 90% of incoming siege attacks. Average hp pool would be 1332hp.

SO, I think dark priest deals basically the same dps as dragon hawk. Dark priest has a slow debuff, which Dragon hawk does not have.
Dragon hawk has more hp's, but it has medium armor, which can be considered a weakness on some levels, and a strength on others. Both deals magic dmg, but Dark priest got spell dmg as well.

I can clearly see that one is meant to be a dps tower, and the other one can do his tanking as well kill. Paladin, however, doesn't have the insane tanks that Ghost has. More health points on dark priest would most lkely mean less damage output.


Moreover, I Don't think Ghost to be that bad. They have +10 armored tanks and 2 slows sources + despair aura, they also have spell dmg and corrupt armour. Besides they got all damage types, only thing ghost doesn't have is Fortified armor. I think ghost is very good.

Anyway, It's all about your opinion right, i think both builder are balanced against each other, but if you compare tower against tower...
Who you think is best tanker? Forsaken ones with despair aura from Apparition or Cavaliers with Heals from Priests? Who's got the best AoE? And the best debuff?....I think both builders got their pros and cons.

If you're thinking about prophet rolls, and which one would be better, I agree with you. I'd rather have Dragon hawk as my t6 than Dark Priest, just because, without tanks, dark priest can't do much alone.

And for myself, I ask to increase Dark Priest mana pool to 100, so they have more burst power.  


I think I might have drift away a bit from this topic, but I meant no harm.


EDIT:
I just noticed I did all this math regarding Dark priests using 3.41 stats(0.82 attack speed). On 3.5b5 and up they have 0.75 attack speed. Bah.


Anyway, too much spare time today, I decided to spend it on MEGA -debug again. Some units seems to have an extra empty line at the bottom of their tool tip/promotes boxes, and I guess it must have been a missclick/typo or something when you guys were editing.
It is annoying for my eyes to see them.

So i went down on every unit tower in game looking for typos and weird stuff: