Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
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von_Oberstain
acmepc3
LNO
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Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
LNO Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:09 am
I cant but feel that highborne and mermaid are too weak. When comparing HB to EWD, then EWD got higher hp, higher dps and constant heal (also higher AOE?). HB? well its ability deals a total of 240. But will only be once a round (not considering leaks).
And mermaid? Been nerfed i read, 6 armor much? Perhaps it was, but 3 armor does seem rather weak. Mermaid also has a horrible DPS, (almost the same as sprite to 50 gold less) there isn't much use for mermaid, considering you can get goliath with just as good AOE armor bonus (no cold effect though), but atleast goliath got a great defensive ability, and fine damage.
And mermaid? Been nerfed i read, 6 armor much? Perhaps it was, but 3 armor does seem rather weak. Mermaid also has a horrible DPS, (almost the same as sprite to 50 gold less) there isn't much use for mermaid, considering you can get goliath with just as good AOE armor bonus (no cold effect though), but atleast goliath got a great defensive ability, and fine damage.
LNO- Captain
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Re: Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
acmepc3 Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:49 am
yep,i love marine and i say that its too weak ;( hydra also should be litle stronger..
i can never pass lvl 20 i always leak 2 turtles there.. like in ur replay ..
i can never pass lvl 20 i always leak 2 turtles there.. like in ur replay ..
acmepc3- Veteran
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Join date : 2011-09-11
Re: Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
von_Oberstain Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:42 am
consider this not as a reply, rather a few thoughts, since i consider mermaid/highborne problematic for UE and X3 also
1. mermaid - 6 armor + 30% chill (hardcoded, so can't be reduced - well, it can, but then it'll affect a number of other spells too). now this is HUGE. 6 armor is effective 36% HP increase, and chill could be counted as additional 30% = 77% effective HP increase versus ONE melee attacker, and more versus multitude. against range, just 36%
i decided to decrease armor bonus to 3 for UE and X3, too (fact is, this is done already a while ago).
in UE, this is significantly less than 50% nerf, though it appears so at first look - it's still 53% versus one, etc, since the chill effect is untouched
in X3, i DO face a dilemma - whether to decrease cooldown a bit, or leave it's current value.
pro: greater number of front line units than in X1 (or units in general) makes most of single unit buffs/debuffs much less powerful than in X1 (this will be one of major balances for next X3)
cons:
greater amount of gold makes mermaid easier to mass, therefore increasing effective HP for mentioned 50+%.
mermaids cast sphere twice in longer battles already
debuff actually doesn't affect only one unit, only buff does
currently, more cons then pros...
2. highborne - this is, plainly, a very bad unit. it was buffed significantly in UE and X3 (both spell damage AND pierce attack). this is one of the largest buffs to single units i ever applied (can't remember how much exactly, but spell power was doubled - this i remember, and dmg was also buffed greatly - to 100dps, but i'm lazy to search for old values, anyway combined dps+spell = ~125 dps, 25 of which is spell)
MEGA considerations - both UE and X3 has creep waves with increasing armor, effectively decreasing units dps overtime (especially true for pierce units, as light armor creeps disappear during midgame, never to return), making spell damage very valuable. MEGA does not increase armor, so spell dmg isn't nearly as important, but still complements pierce loss of power to some point
current status (for UE only, sorry idk X3 experiences since nobody reports them):
mermaid is still vastly used - armor nerf seems to be placed properly (point wasn't to nerf it to oblivion, but to balance it, after all)
highborne is actually seen in games sometimes (i'm talking about games with good player), sometimes even several at once - buff seems to be worth something, but "pierce-curse" problem remains, so i'm thinking about increasing spell damage further (after testing, of course)
1. mermaid - 6 armor + 30% chill (hardcoded, so can't be reduced - well, it can, but then it'll affect a number of other spells too). now this is HUGE. 6 armor is effective 36% HP increase, and chill could be counted as additional 30% = 77% effective HP increase versus ONE melee attacker, and more versus multitude. against range, just 36%
i decided to decrease armor bonus to 3 for UE and X3, too (fact is, this is done already a while ago).
in UE, this is significantly less than 50% nerf, though it appears so at first look - it's still 53% versus one, etc, since the chill effect is untouched
in X3, i DO face a dilemma - whether to decrease cooldown a bit, or leave it's current value.
pro: greater number of front line units than in X1 (or units in general) makes most of single unit buffs/debuffs much less powerful than in X1 (this will be one of major balances for next X3)
cons:
greater amount of gold makes mermaid easier to mass, therefore increasing effective HP for mentioned 50+%.
mermaids cast sphere twice in longer battles already
debuff actually doesn't affect only one unit, only buff does
currently, more cons then pros...
2. highborne - this is, plainly, a very bad unit. it was buffed significantly in UE and X3 (both spell damage AND pierce attack). this is one of the largest buffs to single units i ever applied (can't remember how much exactly, but spell power was doubled - this i remember, and dmg was also buffed greatly - to 100dps, but i'm lazy to search for old values, anyway combined dps+spell = ~125 dps, 25 of which is spell)
MEGA considerations - both UE and X3 has creep waves with increasing armor, effectively decreasing units dps overtime (especially true for pierce units, as light armor creeps disappear during midgame, never to return), making spell damage very valuable. MEGA does not increase armor, so spell dmg isn't nearly as important, but still complements pierce loss of power to some point
current status (for UE only, sorry idk X3 experiences since nobody reports them):
mermaid is still vastly used - armor nerf seems to be placed properly (point wasn't to nerf it to oblivion, but to balance it, after all)
highborne is actually seen in games sometimes (i'm talking about games with good player), sometimes even several at once - buff seems to be worth something, but "pierce-curse" problem remains, so i'm thinking about increasing spell damage further (after testing, of course)
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Re: Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
HuanAk Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:46 am
I will response to any bug report or problem.
and I don't really want to reply on balance issue, because everyone have their own points.
I will let community disccusion on them
PS: mermaid is +5 armor with 20% slow now (you can change slow setting on Advance interface)
PS2: I will add frost armor to Highbone for free in next beta (Highbone can buff 2 target)
PS3: Sky Dragon will do more damage to Air (same damage on normal, but big improve on air)
and I don't really want to reply on balance issue, because everyone have their own points.
I will let community disccusion on them
PS: mermaid is +5 armor with 20% slow now (you can change slow setting on Advance interface)
PS2: I will add frost armor to Highbone for free in next beta (Highbone can buff 2 target)
PS3: Sky Dragon will do more damage to Air (same damage on normal, but big improve on air)
Last edited by HuanAk on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
HuanAk Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:53 am
acmepc3 wrote:yep,i love marine and i say that its too weak ;( hydra also should be litle stronger..
i can never pass lvl 20 i always leak 2 turtles there.. like in ur replay ..
What armor on turtle ?
what damage is Hydra ?
and what damage % against this armor ?
man you should alway leak on this combo
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Re: Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
Dazzlee Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:18 pm
Either it was ironic or you misstype 
With a few Hydras lvl 20 is absolute no problem.
Like to know which tower u build and have at 20
With a few Hydras lvl 20 is absolute no problem.
Like to know which tower u build and have at 20
Dazzlee- Neotank
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Re: Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
acmepc3 Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:23 am
HuanAk wrote:acmepc3 wrote:yep,i love marine and i say that its too weak ;( hydra also should be litle stronger..
i can never pass lvl 20 i always leak 2 turtles there.. like in ur replay ..
What armor on turtle ?
what damage is Hydra ?
and what damage % against this armor ?
man you should alway leak on this combo
hm.. when i meant lvl 20, DIDNT meant hydras. i just said that marine is kinda weak vs lvl 20..i tried alot strategys but change to make it for me is 1/4.
acmepc3- Veteran
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Re: Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
Dazzlee Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:58 am
Why should Marine be weak against lvl 20, doesnt make any sense to me. Like HuanAk and i wrote build some Hydras and thats it.
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Re: Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
acmepc3 Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:49 am
Dazzlee wrote:Why should Marine be weak against lvl 20, doesnt make any sense to me. Like HuanAk and i wrote build some Hydras and thats it.
thats exactly what i do! huanak said himself that hydras are weak vs lvl 20.. i also make some trydents,mermaids,those flying but still leak 1
acmepc3- Veteran
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Re: Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
hhhiii Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:06 am
Hydra really a worst unit, it only do 160+ magic dmg in its form with tripple dmg after 3 hit. even u build alot hydra in lvl 20 u still have very high to leak 1~2 boss n u will having very large leak in lvl 22. Marine unit r also very weak against lvl 28, 29 n lvl 30, hydra really should nerf a bit.
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Re: Highborne (and mermaid) vs Elder witch Doctor
NERV Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:25 pm
hhhiii wrote:Hydra really a worst unit, it only do 160+ magic dmg in its form with tripple dmg after 3 hit. even u build alot hydra in lvl 20 u still have very high to leak 1~2 boss n u will having very large leak in lvl 22. Marine unit r also very weak against lvl 28, 29 n lvl 30, hydra really should nerf a bit.
I guess you mean buff.
Indeed, marine is not so good at late game, maybe because most of their dps come from tankers, marine doesn't have a reliable range dps.
I hope with the new chances marine will become a better race at end game.
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