3.41 Marine build 1-20 (Nortan)

It's all about the hydras, hydras, hydras! With marine I try to focus on making hydras while incoming. Hydras are strong early on and provide good tanking for long range in the later levels. Initial positioning actually matters since a sea giant will leak much worse if it's located in the middle.

lvl 1 sea giant (280 value) (Note: Make your sea against the wall and farther back may be best. If you get a whelp it will be a close clear on the side but a sea giant in the front middle will leak a few from a whelp. If you get a hermit then someone on the other team hates you and is out to get ya...hermits are very rare)

-save

lvl 2 x1 mermaid (410 value) Mermaids behind the sea giant a couple rows obviously ;p

-save (Edit Note: If you get ~10+ gold in leak from allies or 5 gold in leak and a whelp/dino kill then you should have enough to make your first wisp now and still afford the mermaid for lvl 3. This ALSO allows you to to make your second wisp for [3/0] during lvl 3. A little leak is really strong here.

-Prophet note: This means that you can use hydras in a similar fashion as prophet if you have ranged units like aqua/infantry. These are less expensive so they can allow you to income better instead of waiting until lvl 3 and doing so much in lvl 5 like with mermaids. Hydras are amazing tanks for long range. 400+ range is best, but with 325 range on hydras you can get away with using 350 range units.

lvl 3 x1 mermaid (540 value)

-( x1 wisp during the lvl [2/0])

lvl 4 No build

-save

lvl 5 x1 Hydra (880 value)

-( x2 wisp + 60 L/G upgrade [4/1])

lvl 6 No build (Note: Close hold. A dino once leaked 2 on me but usually nothing leaks it)

-save

lvl 7 x1 sea giant (1160 value) The slow from mermaids sphere ability helps a lot here

-----H[W
---S--[A
-------[L
-----M[L
---M--[

I build like this: S = sea giant H = hydra M = mermaid


-( x1 wisp during lvl [5/1])

lvl 8 x1 highborne (1330 value) (Note: This is a close hold, but rarely leaks without excessive sends)

( x2 wisp + 80G/L upgrade [7/2])

lvl 9 No build

-save

lvl 10 x1 hydra (1670 value) This value seems low but it holds fine with slowing armor and magic/piercing damage. You want your hydras tanking for the mermaid/highborne. Althogether 2 Hydras 1 mermaid and 1 highborne for lvl 10 35-40+ income

-( x2 upgrades during/after lvl [7/4]) If you can get [7/5] from partner leak or from winning arena then do so

lvl 12 x1 sea giant (1950 value) This value seems low but hydras handle this level quite well

-save

lvl 13 x1 hydra (2290 value)

-save

lvl 14 Here I generally try to get 560 gold for x2 sea giants, but some times I'm short and do x1 sea giant and something else along with it. Other times I get leak and have enough for another hydra. Either way this is a diffcult level and if you get hard sends you'll leak a few. Sometimes you'll get lucky positioning and hydras 'tank' for sea giants. It honestly may help to plan on positioning sea giants behind hydras so that they aren't first to be focused and they can't run out to die as easily (2800 - 2910+ value) UPDATE: My best results on 14 have been building hydras diagonally back off the wall and placing 2 sea giants behind/beteen them. The hydras will tank while the sea giants kill stuff. Try it and you'll see

---------H[W H = hydra S = sea giant M = mermaid B = highborne WALL = WALL
-------H S[A
-----H S--[L
---------M[L
-------B--[

Had to use dotted lines...spaces didn't show up

- (X2 lumber upgrades [7/6] - [7/9])

lvl 15 No Build

Build more Hydras for 16 and 17 and try for 4300 - 4600 for lvl 17. 17 isn't an easy level due to fortified armor but you should hold unless you get hard sends such as krakens.

You will want to build as much as you can for level 18 since it is difficult for hydras and then you can push some lumber upgrades after to get [7/9] - [7/12] for lvl 20 with 5400 - 6000+ value 300 - 350+ income depending on the game, your leak, and allys leak. Upping the king early and sending low value sends will also affect income of course. For being so heavy on magic it doesn't hold extremely well, but it's not easy to leak on 20 either. [7/15] is optional, do not feel forced to get it. I often stop short a few lumber upgrades to preserve my value for the last levels and I get irritated when I see allies income poorly or only decently and destroy thier value/income by pushing all the way to [7/15].

I suggest changing builders around level 21 - 23. Hydras function more as damage absorbing tanks near the end and you'll want other range damage and some auras for the last levels. Mech, ghost, and element are the best races switches for range damage in my opinion. Hades are always good, but they don't provide the direct damage that hydras are missing (if you can over value the last levels enough it shouldn't matter, go for it). I'm sure you can just keep massing hydras if you want to do a pure marine build, but I'm going for a better overall end build.

Looks good. Did u tried if its possible instead of upgrading sea giant to hydra to build a second sea giant. If it works you can get 1 wisp a bit earlier.

Just tested, with 2 Sea Giants @lvl 5 you leak ~5 if you get archer.

IM UR FAN CAN YOU POST ONE ABOUT PALADIN BUILD PLEASE??????????????????????????

youngwooji wrote:IM UR FAN CAN YOU POST ONE ABOUT PALADIN BUILD PLEASE??????????????????????????

I'm surprized that paladin is the race you are interested in getting advice for. I'm fine with taking build requests, but I say this because currently elite archers are kind of ridiculous in 3.41 and without -li it's easy to income extremely fast. The drawback is that archers are weak to lvl 10, lvl 14, lvl 17, and lvl 20. Generally I'll see no more archers produced from paladin users after lvl 10 ends and they start massing units to deal with the difficult melee and boss levels. Often they switch builders all together after 10. To hold lvl 10 archer users use a lot of non-upgraded archers and only about 4 elite archers to spread out the piercing damage, and often they risk leaking a boss or two with very low health.

Are you just interested in incoming super fast with elite archers or a build that incomes using 1 - 3 while focuses value into knights and dragon hawks? Is there a certain point in which you'd want to change builders or are you looking for pure paladin? I normally just fiddle with the archers, and spend the rest of the time after 10 making melee units for lvl 14, siege/melee for lvl 17, and magic for 20. Just give me an idea of what you are looking for ^_^. I'm not really a fan of elite archer users and if my team loses arena I usually just accept that it was due to mass archers/elite archers being bad for it. Sadly archers seem to be the best method for incoming early in the game.

I would like a guide for the income-focused paladin. I was really surprised when I saw someone reaching 7/10 at income of 120 at level 10 and I wonder that the advantage of income will result in the advantage overall in value and effectiveness etc. later on the stages.

youngwooji wrote:I would like a guide for the income-focused paladin. I was really surprised when I saw someone reaching 7/10 at income of 120 at level 10 and I wonder that the advantage of income will result in the advantage overall in value and effectiveness etc. later on the stages.

120 income sounds about right, but 7/10 seems too high. Even if they got a lot of leak from allys it would be very hard to get to 7/10. What I usually see is 7/6 or 7/7 AFTER lvl 10 when arena comes and with ~1650 value and ~110 income. Perhaps this person didn't build at all for level 10 and used ~1100 value for levels 7 - 9. They would leak all of level 10 but I guess they could push more lumber upgrades. I've never seen 7/10 that early before outside of mercenaries and there was likely weird or rare circumstances in that game. 7/7 is the highest I've seen after lvl 10 (during arena) and I've done it myself. It required me to eat leak from my allys.

After lvl 10 your effectiveness on lvls 14, 17, and 20 depends entirely on other units you have. Don't waste any value on archer or elite archers after level 10. I've seen people hold level 14, 17, and even 20 who used all archers up to level 10. Level 20 is the hardest to not leak since archers aren't that useful. Obviously the early income will help you a lot in the late game after level 20, but the hardest part is making it passed level 20. Using this strategy I've held all, but lvl 20. I didn't have the right units for 20 with 1650 value tied up into archers. As paladin you would make knights after lvl 10 to prepare for lvl 14. From there it's more knights for lvl 17 and then you need dragon hawks for lvl 20. Most people switch builders from paladin to dig for more advantageous units. Going into lvl 20 I usually see the good players with 5800 - 6500 value 7/15 and ~600 income.

To defeat elite archer users who dump ~1650 value into archers to income early I have saved to do difficult sends on levels 17 and 20. They are weak to those levels and hard sends will usually leak them. If you can get thier teammates to leak then their team usually leaks too much onto the king and the king dies. Lvl 20 is the best time to stop them. If they make it passed lvl 20 and have good units they are unlikely to leak anything the rest of the game and will be very hard to defeat in the last waves unless thier teammates are awful.

I'll just give you a general layout for 1 - 10, but elite archers make the middle game a struggle and aren't that good for arena. If I can do well in prophet without using them I won't use them, but usually I end up making a couple elites for the levels they are good against (1 - 13). I'll assume no -li since -ap won't naturally have -li in the mode and archers work best without -li.

lvl 1 elite archer (205 value) x1 wisp immediately [2/0] (Note: Archer is usually placed in the far back against the wall, near the corner to the middle lane. If you get a dino you will leak it a lone.)

- (x2 wisps during the level [4/0])

lvl 2 x1 archer next to your elite archer (255 value) (note: a dino will get by if you get one, so if you want ally leak gold make another archer and only x1 wisp during lvl 1. Hopefully your allys don't leak though)

-Save

lvl 3 x1 elite archer (410 value)

- (60G/60L upgrade [4/1] if a dino hasn't leaked you, you killed a whelp, and you used lumber every level you should have enough for [5/1])

lvl 4 x2 archers (510 value)

-(x2 wisps [6/1])

lvl 5 x1 elite archer (665 value)

- save

lvl 6 x1 elite archer (820 value)

-FARM save

lvl 7 x5 archers. 2 in front of your elite archers and three on the opposite wall (1070 value)

-(x1 worker + 80G/80L upgrade [7/2])

lvl 8 x2 archers (1170 value)

FARM 100G/100L upgrade [7/3]

lvl 9 x3 archers (1320 value) get a fourth archers if you can aford it. Can be a close hlold that a dino leaks.

-save

lvl 10 x 6 archers (1620+ value) put some in front of elite archers and some with the opposite wall group to split up your archers

That's 16 archers and 4 elite archers for lvl 10. Push as many lumber upgrades as you can during/after lvl 10 to get to 7/5 or 7/6 before arena. This is what I would do with archers if I got zero leak from allys. With leak 7/6 or 7/7 after lvl 10 would be doable, especially with an arena victory. 1650 value of archers isn't good for arena so you need good teammates. I'm guessing this is what you were looking for. Elite archers are pretty simple to use and as I've said thier main weakness is the middle levels. Getting leaked from a furbolg on lvl 7 or too many sends on lvl 9 could really mess up your plans, while getting ally leak could let you income even more.

Everyone uses slightly different positioning such as forming V's, clumping all into 1 spot, and splitting archers apart.
I usually do something like:

wall]A______AAA[wall
wall]AAA_AAAAA[wall
wall]AAA_AEEEE[wall

A = archer

E = elite archer

If I have bad units with prophet I'll resort to archer incoming, but I often try to not rely on them.

Assuming you play on WC3 it can really help to go into Custom Games and in the Download section you can play 3.41 games as the race you want to test. This way you know how your build will handle in an actual game and can test out different builds very quickly.

Type -debug and you will recieve the same sends that you send the enemy king and you gain a lot of options that help you test out levels such as -gold x, -lumber x, -level x, -start, -pause, income x, -resume, and -clear. I suggest using -clear before your sends reach the enemy king to prevent recieving king kill money or you should remove -hg from the game mode since -ap will include -hg.

Guy, i played your tactic today. It gives a lot of income, but i leaked 3 bosses on 10 lvl(one with very low hp and two with high hp).
It's about paladin. Marine is great. Ty.

Ah, yes against mass militia on lvl 10 it can be problematic. It holds against even 3 dinos but that mass militia can really cause some bad split and leak 3 bosses with low health. I'm not sure how you got 2 bosses with high health outside of an outrageous ammount of send. Make sure that you are building far back. Also if they send mass militia try to use antistuck on the boss to slow it down and it often causes militia to go in front of a boss and cause a gap to help you clear the level. Antistucking them also causes them to take a different path and they will turn to the right/left. Even against mass militia you will hold that level BUT BUT BUT you need to build all your nonupgraded archer BEHIND your elite archers so that the elite archers die first and can take out mass militia spam by the time the bosses get to you. Of course the safest bet against mass militia is to stop at 7/2 and build a couple more archers, but that's no fun!

I see the problem you are having. I will update it soon.

The key is making 5 elite archers for lvl 7 and a ton of non-upgraded archers behind the elite archers for lvl 10. ALSO you elite archers should be clumped up in a corner...otherwise you will leak lvl 7. I tested it against 10 militia and 2 archers. Definately try to antistuck the bosses if you think it will help position 1 behind militia The anti-stuck exploit in a 3.41 thing only and won't work the same in other versions


lvl 1 elite archer (205 value) x1 wisp immediately [2/0] (Note: Archer is usually placed in the far back against the wall, near the corner to the middle lane. If you get a dino you will leak it a lone.)

- (x2 wisps during the level [4/0])

lvl 2 x1 archer next to your elite archer (255 value) (note: a dino will get by if you get one, so if you want ally leak gold make another archer and only x1 wisp during lvl 1. Hopefully your allys don't leak though) EDIT: I suggest building so that the elite archer will be the target...so build your elite archer slightly away from the wall and put the archer against the wall. I've seen this hold a dino before! barely

-Save

lvl 3 x1 elite archer (410 value)

- (60G/60L upgrade [4/1])

lvl 4 x2 archers (510 value)

-(x1 wisps [5/1])

lvl 5 x1 elite archer (665 value)

-(x1 wisps [6/1] FARM) (Note: If you get any leak or others leak enough to let you income extra you'll be able to go [7/1] now. Otherwise you will probably be a few gold short on level 7.)

lvl 6 x1 elite archer (1025 value)

-FARM save

lvl 7 x1 elite archer archers. (1025 value)

IMPORTANT - here is how you MUST position for lvl 7 Other positions can leak E = elite archer
This corner like position provides good spread and can hold the level reliably while many other positions leak. Try to use antistuck on the wave as it comes in to see if you can cause some separation.

NOTE: If you can make your own elite archer positions with 5 elites to hold lvl 7 better and then mass archers behind them for lvl 10 then do so. The key is that you want to hold lvl 7 with 5 elites and then get archers at lvl 10 to focus bosses. So splitting the archers can be bad.

-----EE[W
--_EEE[A
--------[L
--------[L


-(x1 worker + 80G/80L upgrade [7/2])

lvl 8 x2 archers (1125 value)

FARM 100G/100L upgrade [7/3]

lvl 9 x3 archers (1275 - 1325 value) Get a four archer if you can aford it

-save

lvl 10 x 6 - 7 archers (1625+ value) Altogether thats 5 elite archers and 12 archers for lvl 10.

Position similar to this. You can put more archers to the left if you want so that you don't have a large second row, but I did it like this to ensure that the elites are the first to die. It could possibly cause range issues in late game depending on how far forward you build. The biggest problem here is that some archer sneak around the left side and die first. If they mass militia you will still likely leak 1 at low health, but I hoped this helps. There's not much you can do about getting more than 8 peasants.

-------_EE[W
-------EEE[A
--AAAAAA[L
--AAAAAA[L

Thanks for the feedback. As I said, I try to avoid using archers unless I have too so I'm a little rusty with paladin archer strat. If I see someone using it even better I'll get get back to ya.

Lol, i thought elite archers are behind archers. But it was from the wront side:). I'll try both old and new tactics today. Ty.
I just cant imagine any other tactics with so high income and lumber upgrades before lvl10 starts. I don't realy understand why don't u love those archers. I played it once, but my teammates leaked a lot, so i got 1620 value and 7\5

can you give night elf build ?? thnx

I followed this Marine build. It failed

I did everything exactly as you said. I was about 20g short of Hydra upgrade for level 10 so I upgrade Highborn out of desperation. I leaked 3 bosses.
Not sure where you got this extra gold from..... This build must rely upon getting enough enemy sends for the extra gold.

My team mates also both leaked and we lost.



Also, why are people requesting other builds in this thread, you should do it back in the forum. Norten you should also have posted that Paladin build in the forum where people can find it.

Greenwhy wrote:I followed this Marine build. It failed

I did everything exactly as you said. I was about 20g short of Hydra upgrade for level 10 so I upgrade Highborn out of desperation. I leaked 3 bosses.
Not sure where you got this extra gold from..... This build must rely upon getting enough enemy sends for the extra gold.

My team mates also both leaked and we lost.



Also, why are people requesting other builds in this thread, you should do it back in the forum. Norten you should also have posted that Paladin build in the forum where people can find it.

This forum isn't that active so I didn't feel very obligated to make a whole other thread for it. I will admit that this marine build incomes painfully slow due to the beginning. I haven't been that happy with it but marine is an amazing race. I really should try to improve on this since marine and shadow are the favorite races (hydra and hades are so tanky for long range <3) I will say that if you are unsure if you will have enough for [7/2] due to no one leaking at all and you getting very little send then sit at [6/2]. You should still be able to push [7/4] during lvl 10. A good way to measure is you want 70 - 80 gold to sit on after lvl 9 because you get ~280 gold on lvl 9 depending on your income.

The problem is that you need to start with sea giant (there is no way around this for me....I must have my hydras) but lvl 2 and lvl 3 pose thier own threaths that require you to build as well. There is a possibility of replacing the mermaid on lvl 3 with a egg sack and redoing the build but it's a bit risky. I will play around with it shortly and try to get something more concrete. I do recall many games where I stayed [6/2] until after 10 because otherwise I could not afford the other hydra and those hydras are amazing.

You can also switch your level 7 and 8 builds, resulting in 5/1 before 7.
It's a bit risky though, i don't know how well it holds vs hard sends.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL,
My marine build is the same till wave 7(with defferend unit places) but same units lol, wtf i just saw this and i am like WTF i must comment, but i notived u have a misstake writen in some early wave (don`t rememder exacly where). u say if u get some gold from dinoes or leaks u can go for second wisp but thats wrong for 2 reasons.
1) some1 who may follow this guide will make this wisp and then he wont have gold for hydra u need many leaks from ur allies t have that much gold
and 2)u never say about ur 7th wisp if u dont get feed from ur team so in theory some1 who follows this guide will remail with 6 wisps for the entire game.
Personaly i go for the last wisp at wave 8 to 9 so i get my 7-2 at 9 and normaly have my 2 hydras at 10
as for my placement i go like that:H=hydra, B=highborn, M=mermail, D=dark ranger(i am on game ranger and we play b4 here) but she is only at lvl 1 and she isnt necesery.In general heroes are bad for late its way better to change builder and get more aures, dr just makes waves 7-8 easier and u def way better when ur allies have leaks, or when u simply like playing 1 builder instead of having a mix of all builders
..........H[
........HD[
..........B[
.........M[
(thats for wave 10)

tasos wrote:LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL,
My marine build is the same till wave 7(with defferend unit places) but same units lol, wtf i just saw this and i am like WTF i must comment, but i notived u have a misstake writen in some early wave (don`t rememder exacly where).  u say if u get some gold from  dinoes or leaks u can go for second wisp but thats wrong for 2 reasons.
1) some1 who may follow this guide will make this wisp and then he wont have gold for hydra u need many leaks from ur allies t have that much gold
and 2)u never say about ur 7th wisp if u dont get feed from ur team so in theory some1 who follows this guide will remail with 6 wisps for the entire game.
Personaly i go for the last wisp at wave 8 to 9 so i get my 7-2 at 9 and normaly have my 2 hydras at 10
as for my placement i go like that:H=hydra, B=highborn, M=mermail, D=dark ranger(i am on game ranger and we play b4 here) but she is only at lvl 1 and she isnt necesery.In general heroes are bad for late its way better to change builder and get more aures, dr just makes waves 7-8 easier and u def way better when ur allies have leaks, or when u simply like playing 1 builder instead of having a mix of all builders
..........H[
........HD[
..........B[
.........M[
(thats for wave 10)

Keep in mind this was posted over 2 years ago. It's not likely I would follow this exact build nowadays and at the time 3.5 didn't exist. Now that hydra is nerfed in 3.5  I'm not even as fond of marine as I used to be. The power of hydras was what made marine work and without better range dps then mermaid or sky dragon it's nothing special. As for your first point you need to explain why someone is stupid enough to just make that wisp knowing they will be about 10 gold short. It definitely didn't say to just make that wisp. Also, it's not as if this can't be deviated from if a person does something weird like that (as it probably should be). You don't really need the second mermaid for 3 and can improvise. As for the second point the reason there is no need to mention that wisp is because it's one that you'd already have made. Apparently you failed to notice that the note about the wisp you can make early with ~10g is something that you would have gotten anyways. You simply would have had 40g+ after lvl 3.

Nortan wrote:-save (Edit Note: If you get ~10+ gold in leak from allies or 5 gold in leak and a whelp/dino kill then you should have enough to make your first wisp now and still afford the mermaid for lvl 3. This ALSO allows you to to make your second wisp for [3/0] during lvl 3. A little leak is really strong here.

-Prophet note: This means that you can use hydras in a similar fashion as prophet if you have ranged units like aqua/infantry. These are less expensive so they can allow you to income better instead of waiting until lvl 3 and doing so much in lvl 5 like with mermaids. Hydras are amazing tanks for long range. 400+ range is best, but with 325 range on hydras you can get away with using 350 range units.

lvl 3 x1 mermaid (540 value)

-( x1 wisp during the lvl [2/0])

lvl 4 No build

-save

lvl 5 x1 Hydra (880 value)

-( x2 wisp + 60 L/G upgrade [4/1])

Instead of 2 wisps and a lumber upgrade to get 4/1 during lvl 5 you would only need 1 wisp and a lumber upgrade IF you got that wisp bad at lvl 3. Again the person making all these weird mistakes must be really stupid and I'm not going to feel bad for their mistakes, especially if they don't learn from them. I can't account for such a blatant lack of reading comprehension and I'm not afraid to add small side notes out of concern that someone will just do what that note suggests without taking into account the qualifications of the note and why it was put there in the first place.