Becoming a advanced Legion TD player, my Experience and Thoughts.

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Nice guide/thoughts yeann thanks a lot More like a story than a guide but nice anyway, i think it will help new players.

Also big thanks for others you mentioned!

In last six months there were two big names circling around LTD world, ofcourse PanicX and HighestIncome. You also mentioned them both as first two For fun, i would really like to see 1v1 (legion is not for 1v1, but for fun only) match between HighestIncome and PanicX, i think it would be an epic clash and epic spectacle to watch.

Wait what did I help with?
All I am is a supporting force in arguments. Rarely played much Legion TD lately. MMH+TF2+MTG:Duels of the Planeswalkers+VVVVVV+Gmod got me off legion. xD

missgreen wrote:Nice guide/thoughts yeann thanks a lot More like a story than a guide but nice anyway, i think it will help new players.

Also big thanks for others you mentioned!

In last six months there were two big names circling around LTD world, ofcourse PanicX and HighestIncome. You also mentioned them both as first two For fun, i would really like to see 1v1 (legion is not for 1v1, but for fun only) match between HighestIncome and PanicX, i think it would be an epic clash and epic spectacle to watch.

It would be interesting but there is only so much each player can do with what they are given and there are many players that are just as good at legion as these two. Players that can and have used every race and unit combination as needed and succeeded. Players that know how to income and can underbuild most levels, unit selection allowing. At a certain point, no amount of skill or experience can differentiate one player from the other and 1 v 1 often feels rather dull to me anyways. In a 1 v 1 games with players that know how to play the game will almost certainly drag to lvl 31 and from there I don't think the outcome is all that important.

Panicx hasn't been online lately as far as I'm aware but he's played for a long time. I wouldn't consider him any better than myself or many other UC members. If you go off the current games played with UC bot Panicx isn't even that outstanding compared to others. His time with the game is unlikely representive from only his current games played though and many of us with more than him just inflate it by playing tons of publics games. I can't speak for HighestIncome but I'm sure he's also comparable to many of the "best" players. If you've put the time commitment into the game then you likely know how to do just about anything. However, I have seen players that should have tons of experience make some rather poor decisions Legion is more about luck, risks, and units composition at a competative level of play imo because we all know what we are doing.

Yeah Nortan, i agree almost fully with you, but as i said 'for fun only'. And i really think it would be hell of a fun to watch, i mean i can't speak about PanicX, but i know HI, i played with him. That guy is literally a genius besides of Legion. He told me some epic tactics while we were playing that i was wondering all day 'omfg how did he invent this' (he didn't put that in his guide, ofcourse i can't share that, it's his property).
Anyways you need to have something that will separate good from advanced, advanced from pro, and pro from well, Worlds best. I mean, obviously not all UC players have same skill, but they can all be categorized as 'good', question is 'How good'? So how would you measure the skill of LTD player?

...

Honestly, HI is the best LTD player i have ever seen, and i was playing with a lot of players. It's true that he is quite cocky, that he jokes a lot, fails for fun and so on, but that doesn't affect his skill, it's only style and personallity. He is originally DotA 1 pro and i think that he plays LTD for fun, but still i think he deserved to officially become 'Best Incomer of the Universe', because it is his wish i think.
Anyways a gamer to respect.

I don't know PanicX, but im sure that words would be similar, probably a gamer to respect too.

Thanks for the replys. Nortan and HighestIncome: I would be really delighted to if you give me your assessments about my thoughts.

Best regards ... est-yeann

LoL me vs. Panic.

About this post: This is nice guide, but theres always a 'but':

1) I need to say that you are way too optimistic. You need to realise that not all players can be good, even if they read 2x10^14 guides. You also need to realise that this game will never be big and competetive as DotA 2.
2) About friends and mates, imo you should play with your real life friends.
3) About bots, its not important on which bot you play, its important with and vs. who do u play.
4) About practice, 5-7 games a day are einough.
5) 'Well, 7/15 is optional'- You are horribly wrong, 7/15 is a must have and it is a must have before lvl 17 (on lvl 16 is pefect timing if you cant make it earlier).
6)' lvl 07, 30 Income, 5/1'- This made me laugh, really. Lvl 7 minimum 7/2.
7)'He can have >24000 value and >1400/1500 income round 31 with bad units anyway. So respect that guys work .'-Thank you for sharing, but i already knew that i can have more than 1500 income (kidding, thanks for respect).
7,5) There are no 'bad units' in legion td, for me bad unit would be unit that doesnt deal dmg, and there is no such in ltd. So there are no bad but there are epic units in ltd like: Bottom Feeder, Archer, Yggdrasil, Polar bear, Tree of travel, Infantry, Messiah, and Lod.
8 ) 'Your build should look like a "V"-formation.'- Big mistake, this will make your focus horrible and creep focus perfect, because they will focus the front one. And you can never get einough oracles if you play only hybrid, and you should. One-two oracles are einough to give buff to endgame king-defending mass.
9) You cant have 1200 income if you get 7/15 on lvl 24, lol.

My suggestions and thoughts: Missgreen said that i shared with him some epic tactics, so yes its true and its about 1vs.1 games (prophet). So my idea was, go to the single player and make some good income (alchemist, archer, yggdrasil, ect.) tower and then measure time it needs to beat lvl 1. Then write down all those time recordings (my brainless friend asked me 'what if he builds behind, then your time wont fit', lol start measuring when first crab dies). Then when you play 1v1, you can be sure that your opponent wont have any send, so you dont send anything. Then you use stopwatch and measure time that he needs to beat lvl 1, and by that you can know if he has SOME of imba towers that you recorded time for. If he has, you can know the critical lvl for him and what to send. If he doesnt have any of imba towers, than, its good because of that he doesnt (Suggestion: use your brain). I will maybe post this in my guide too, i didnt share this because i was too lazy to write this down, actually.

There is so much things to do and think of in this game, we just need brains to do that.

Best Regards, HighestIncome

Thx for you reply HighestIncome. Well, i know that you do 7/15 before round 17, because you are "Diablo" right ? Well, i really respect your work. But i think guys don't want to build so risky and leaking those levels you would do income. They wanna go Income and value in one point together. Well, i know that Income is the importants thing in this game, but new player don't know when they have to make Worker and when not. I allways try to do 7/15 as far as possible, BUT: remember you have to catch leaks from mates wether if you upgrade King. So i guess you have lost games with your tactic, when it doesn't have work fine @ the early part of the game. However, i would like to play with you some games, i think i can learn something from you and you can learn from me. I think advanced-players should help among themselves to get better anyway. And about step 9) you have comment, i mean you need to have 7/ 15 @ the second Arena Fight. Then push income and then you will reach >1200 income round 31. Btw, when i play a bit saver i also can reach 1500 income and 25000 value round 31. This won't be a problem. I agree with you in the point, that we need more people who producing valuable content about Legion TD and sharing their knowledge. And yeah, Legion will never be so popular then Dota 2 , but we need people to help new players and to hold the actually advanced-players having fun with the game. oh i completely forgot to mention the problems of video gaming when it comes to parents and shit as well. thats a pretty big mistake on my part, for me, my parents were something I had to overcome to even start becoming a pro @ dota 2 and a advanced-player @ LTD. I'm sure a lot of people like Merlini (oldschool Dota 1 pro/playing Dota 2 actually.streaming ) need to deal with this shit as well. A lot of people quit or decided not to become pros because of family issues from gaming .

PS: I will update my thoughts. But i haven't much time yet. So just wait until this "guide" is finished, bro

Best regards ... est-yeann

My original DotA and DotA 2 nickname is 'Diablo' not 'Dialbo'. So i am HighestIncome a.k.a. Diablo. If you wanna talk about gaming generally, i suggest you to start new topic. If i can learn something from you, feel free to write it here, im curious to see.

We can play games, its no problem for me.

Best Regards, HI

HighestIncome wrote:5) 'Well, 7/15 is optional'- You are horribly wrong, 7/15 is a must have and it is a must have before lvl 17 (on lvl 16 is pefect timing if you cant make it earlier).

I simply can not agree with these and the way you correct people by sayings things as if though they are fact. It is not always advisable to get 7/15 no matter how much your proclaim it to be "a must". Often you have to take into account what units you have and how your teammates will deal with upcoming levels if you know you may not hold it (even without send). Without a good unit selection and/or feed 7/15 before 20 can be difficult, let alone before 17. I see it done by myself as well as other, but those aren't usually your typical games; often not even good games with constant leaking for excessive income time as well as a lot of feeding occuring.

6)' lvl 07, 30 Income, 5/1'- This made me laugh, really. Lvl 7 minimum 7/2.

This would be quite unintellegent with most unit combinations outside of elite archers with a blocker (polar bear or any thing that could eat some hits). At 7/2 at lvl 7 without feed you would only have 920 - 950 value. Doable with archers and ToK (maybe double spawn of dragon if you can handle lvl 5 and but most anything else and you will be leaking 10 - 20 of the wave and then a lot of lvl 8 afterward. A well positioned hydra/hades with great supporting units might be able to take on the majority of the wave but you will then have to deal with lvl 8 afterward. What exactly do you base this 7/2 standard off of for lvl 7 because it seems like you base ALL you incoming standards around archers, getting lots of leak money, or simply leaking half of 7, 8, or both.

Underbuilding lvl 7 by up to 300 value is usually a recipe for disaster unless you are blessed with very specific units. 5/1 is a good goal for lvl 7. I often aim for 5/1 or 6/1 if I had decent units or my team is feeding a little. 6/2 or 7/2 with archers and a blocker or some other amazing but unlikely unit combination. At 4/1 you can almost get 1200 value, making it so that you really shouldn't be able to break 1000 value with 7/2 unless you are getting feed. I find it funny that you attempt to emphasis your point by say "minimum 7/2". How often do you see players getting 7/2 at lvl 7 without feed or tok/archer and then actually manage to not leak a large portion? If 7/2 in the minimum then what is the maximum without feed? At 7/3 you wouldn't even be able to get 900 value for lvl 7.

Anyways, your post seems pretty good est-yeann (I just skimmed most of it. Rather lengthy ^_^). Lots of sound advice there and I can agree with most of it.

For beginning players I feel that they should aim for 3/0 by lvl 4 instead of 2/0 however. 4/1 at lvl 7 is an appropriate goal if you aren't sure of what you are doing (you'll be able to get close or even reach the recommended if you haven't been leaking).

For more advanced players it seems about right as well. A lot of it relies on what you are working with; sadly 3.41 is not really all the balanced. Since it's legion, just as much can fall on how the game itself plays out. 5/1 for 7 is a goal I see from a lot of decent players I play with but often they will also try to get 6/1 with 1100 value if they know how to use thier units. Unless you have poor units you should try to aim for 7/3 by lvl 10 with 1650 - 1700 value so that you can do a 7/5 push after. There is combinations that you definately need to overbuild with though. I've used 6/2 with poor units and still leaked a boss on lvl 10 (I'm sure it would have been 2 - 3 bosses if I went 7/3 but I was aiming to get them all that game and do a 7/4 push after ). Prophet can be such a cruel mistress but at othertimes it is a blessed goddes

Thx for your replay Nortan. I'll update my thoughts when ever i can. "For beginning players I feel that they should aim for 3/0 by lvl 4 instead of 2/0 however." You are right, I have correct it.

Best regards ... est-yeann

est-yeann wrote:= you have comment, i mean you need to have 7/ 15 @ the second Arena Fight. Then push income and then you will reach >1200 income round 31.

I allows me to get involved in has conversation, because HighestIncome is right is est-yeann. With 7/15 lvl 20, you will not reach 1200 income lvl 30. And if you are sceptical, I have the replay which proves it. I made 5/1 lv3, 7/1 lvl 7, 7/4 lv 9, 7/7 lvl 12, 7/10 lvl 14, 7/12 lv 16 and 7/15 lvl17. And I reaches an income of 1243 (+9 lumber), lvl 31.

Here is the replay => rghost.net/45919268

And otherwise, for everything those who are sceptical on the way to play HighestIncome, that works very well. But it's true that it is only reserved for those who know how to hod a wave with a minimum of value, and the units suited.

Personally I always achieved are 7/15 before the lvl 20, or during the lvl 20, or during the arena vl 20, and I always reached a maximum of 1000 income lvl 30. In the replay that I have you poster, it is has first time when I try the technique to HighestIncome, and that in very well worked.

Then yes I took Hybrid, yes I maybe had of has luck, yes I was one little feed, but if I had made as usual, I would have reached 1000 income lvl 30 and 20 000 vaue. While in I end with 1243 income and 22615 value.

If I had really followed the guide of HighestIncome, I would have of the being in 7/15 before the lvl 17, and thus to have 650 income lvl 20, but I'm to stay 7/12 before the lvl 17, and I have push 7/15 during the lvl 17. But I found too hard to make 7/15 before the lvl 17 ^^. But I would have been able to reach 1500 income by making that but well...

Best regards, CH3SS


PS: An opinion from you on my part interests me HighestIncome a lot, thank you:).

Ohh... It is really hard to understand me or maths itself (i know maths is hard, i went to specialized mathematical school)
So, @Norty, here is a thing, i played between 3000 and 4000 games of Legion td mega 3.41. (and around 20.000 games of DotA 1, i say this because it helps a lot, about WC3 mechanics). In every of that games i ALWAYS have 7/2 (minimum, 7/3 is good with EA and slow, i LOVE it ) on lvl 7 and 7/15 on lvl 17 (rarely it happens that i dont get that by times i indicated). 1000 value on lvl 7 is MAXIMUM (i like 2x blaster+alchemist on 7). It is FAIL not to leak lvl 7, i dont remember a game that i didnt leak lvl 7 and 8. Only if i get imba random, because i play hybrid only.
'Without a good unit selection and/or feed 7/15 before 20 can be difficult, let alone before 17.'- This also made me laugh, with ANY units 7/15 is a must lets say with poor combo @ lvl 18.
@CH3SS about you, come lets play some chess and dont reserve long time for it, we will finish it fast.
Kiddin anyway im glad you find my guide useful and im glad that works for you, but you failed at beginning, warlock+archer>lvl2 +you would leak dino which gives you more time for building workers. Give me that random .
It is so simple, you cant have 26000 value (as i did) without leaks, it is impossible, so my playstyle works and my maths works.

For Nortan, replay: http://www.filedropper.com/ltdhi (on last replay you norty remained silent, i would like comment on this one- 7/2 lvl 5, poor random, hybrid, 2x troll in early game , small feed on lvl 3, although undervalued ). Imagine what could i do with 2x outcasts instead of that 2 trolls.

It looks like that i need to make overall strategical guide myself... It will be longest guide in LTD history, and i will name it "LTD mega little book", i just need time, and i think i will be able to make it by the end of July.

Best Regards, The Highest

Mother of God, what a player!

@HighestIncome

Ok HI, Yes I don't know how to hold still too much wave with a minimum of value, but I'm surprised that you does not emit more criticisms, it's that I had to manage well enough^^.

And thank you for your criticisms,

Best regards, CH3SS

PS: I play on RPT Bot (less of delay than on UCBot), CH3SS@Northend (Europe)

Do you really want me to comment on your replay? I'm not really a fan of hybrid since it's so hit or miss. Getting nightmare on lvl 1 is rather huge since it does so well in the easrly levels (especially 1 - 3). The warlock and goul alongside the nightmare gave you a posative 45 value in the beginning which makes things easier even if you did get double troll later. All 3 of your teammates leaked on lvl 3 for a total of 26 scorpians, granting you 78 total gold; I wouldn't really consider that small leak. Although you did leak on 5, 7, and 8 there was also king kill money recieved. You recovered decently for lvl 7 after leaking lvl 5 but it helps that you got a cyborg and lifesteal aura for your melee. Seemed like an unusually long first 10 levels with how much leak and king kills there was.

Hybrid and prophet archer games are just hard to judge and it really doesn't help getting 50+ extra gold in leak in the first few levels. Hybrid is sometimes too RNG. If you had gotten no leak money and 2 disicples instead of the nightmare and cyborg it would have been significantly more difficult to income. It was a well played game though. GJ.

Yes i expected comment like this, so nothing new, i expected 'hate' (pay attention on '') Is that 'GJ' ironic or not, im not quite sure, i have arguments for both?.. So can you, Norty, describe a game and a player on which your comment would be: 'Epic played, amazing'?
About RNG, lol RNG is RNG, it cant be 'too RNG'

@CH3SS i didnt watch full game, im sorry but its too boring for me, i watched till lvl two and i saw you failed. You need to give me good reason so i watch your replay till end...

No reason, just the opinion of a pro...

Allright then, 'opinion of a pro': Work harder, play more and use that thing you have in your skull.

HighestIncome wrote:Yes i expected comment like this, so nothing new, i expected 'hate' (pay attention on '') Is that 'GJ' ironic or not, im not quite sure, i have arguments for both?.. So can you, Norty, describe a game and a player on which your comment would be: 'Epic played, amazing'?
About RNG, lol RNG is RNG, it cant be 'too RNG'

@CH3SS i didnt watch full game, im sorry but its too boring for me, i watched till lvl two and i saw you failed. You need to give me good reason so i watch your replay till end...

It wasn't hate whatsoever. It was a realistic, depictive breakdown. I'm simply defending my point that 7/2 is generally an awful idea for lvl 7. You say that 7/2 for lvl 7 is the minimum, which I find to be very untrue. If I had given advice it would have even been constructive criticism, but I did no such thing; that was not my intent.

Why could it not be too RNG? If there is not a lot of RNG, then things are less unpredictable and luck has less to do with an outcome. If there is a lot of RNG or too much RNG, then things are quite unpredictable and everything can ride on blind luck. I find it strange that you would even bother bringing up hate with the things you post about other players.

@Nortan, sorry but these builds are fail (i know you tried to make 'safe' use of wolverines, which is stupid, ridiculous and retarded, imo).

This was a good one. I had a post about how you are rude and overbearing to others and that you are acting egotistical, but I didn't bother to post it since it would just cause more backlash from you and such confrontations are pointless. I don't see a reason to defend myself over such insignificant things so I'll either ignore your insults or respond to them in an unexpectedly friendly manner.

norocgogule wrote: i think it is a kind of overbearing to say those thing's in your post "Ye but i think that you should first pay attention on who are you talking to, or whos post are you reading. It can answer tonz of questions about how serious post is, or which part of post is serious, which not. Psihology often works same, so new members of this forum won't make much fun because they need to show knowledge and some inovations first, so they have compatibility to make fun. In my case, i think i did einough so i can make fun in my posts or guides, and no one will get it wrong or say 'wtf is this noob talking about'. I wont say that i made revolution in this game, but face it or not, im making this game different and im moving it to 'next lvl'. "

This is what I was going to originally respond to. Seems to me that you'd be the person saying "wtf is this noob talkng about". Your condescending attitudes towards others is off-putting. You seem to be paranoid about perceived Irony and sarcasm seem. Is there a reason my "GJ" should be insincere? I figured it was the polite thing to say since it was a well played game, but it seems like you would have preferred my post without it (I can defend my point without being snarky/rude). Simply because I disagree with you on certain aspects does not mean that I am your enemy or that I dislike you. I do, however, feel that you should treat other posters more politely/respectfully. This opinion of mine I feel is worth defending.

@Nortan, with respect:

First thing i said is 'pay attention on '''. If 7/2 on lvl 7 is 'awful idea', what do you say about 7/3 on lvl 5: http://www.filedropper.com/hiltd ? (Im red). This is a joke allright?

Theres only one thing that i respect, and that is ability of people to think, inovate and produce beautiful ideas. How can i respect people whos only point is not to leak in Legion (isnt that too easy?)? How can i respect newbies that have 2600 value on lvl 10 and 15 income, and after winning arena (ofcourse they win when they have 2500+ value) yelling in all chat 'Owned'? Dont you see that most of the players are like that? Can you see all that brainless gameplays/posts? Go respect it Nortan, but i wont, im sorry. The only hate i brought here is located on my post about WIR, and i stay behind it. Everything else i said was in 'friendly manner' or criticism in order to help/suggest, wasnt it?

Again, RNG is RNG, and you cant say 'too RNG'. It can be too much usage of RNG, but 'too RNG' is mathematically incorrect, because random is random. It would be almost the same as if you said: 'Too infinite'.

...

So my wish is to learn something new, and i couldnt find anything that i dont already know here, on this forum. If you or anyone else make something new, something that i can learn from, i would respect that and would show that respect.
Anyways thanks for that 'GJ' or 'well played' and thanks for saying that it wasnt irony, because i always feel that i can play better, but its so hard to do lately, like theres no more space for being better, like i reached (my) maximum. I feel bad because i simply cant push income anymore, its just impossible. I think that you cant feel the 'weight' i hold when i play game (i always play with real life friends), how much is expected from me, how bad it is when i feel bad because i did 'only' 550 income (i really do, then i do 700 and i think, 'ffs i could do even more') on lvl 20... All that things affect me but im trying to keep that away and make posts that makes sense. So when i say something 'wrong' or when things that i indicate are 'outlandish' that is simply because sometimes i forget that all other people aint like me. But i never wish bad to others, and i never say something that will make someone else fail. Again, maybe i should think of others first, and then make guide useful for them, because it looks like very few can understand my income guide fully and get useful informations from it. Still, i stay behind my guide, and i think it is right. I think that 7/2 is good on lvl 7 and i still think that 7/15 is a must. (because i make it in every game and i never fail).

In the end, i would like to read your opinion about this idea:
'So my idea was, go to the single player and make some good income (alchemist, archer, yggdrasil, ect.) tower and then measure time it needs to beat lvl 1. Then write down all those time recordings (my brainless friend asked me 'what if he builds behind, then your time wont fit', lol start measuring when first crab dies). Then when you play 1v1, you can be sure that your opponent wont have any send, so you dont send anything. Then you use stopwatch and measure time that he needs to beat lvl 1, and by that you can know if he has SOME of imba towers that you recorded time for. If he has, you can know the critical lvl for him and what to send. If he doesnt have any of imba towers, than, its good because of that he doesnt.'

Best Regards, HI

HighestIncome wrote:@Nortan, with respect:

In the end, i would like to read your opinion about this idea:
'So my idea was, go to the single player and make some good income (alchemist, archer, yggdrasil, ect.) tower and then measure time it needs to beat lvl 1. Then write down all those time recordings (my brainless friend asked me 'what if he builds behind, then your time wont fit', lol start measuring when first crab dies). Then when you play 1v1, you can be sure that your opponent wont have any send, so you dont send anything. Then you use stopwatch and measure time that he needs to beat lvl 1, and by that you can know if he has SOME of imba towers that you recorded time for. If he has, you can know the critical lvl for him and what to send. If he doesnt have any of imba towers, than, its good because of that he doesnt.'

Best Regards, HI

Interesting idea but it seems a little extreme and kind of takes the fun out of fog of war. Also, by arena you will know thier units anyways and knowing what they have before hand might not neccessarily matter unless you save lumber somewhere along the way. If you can scout out units weak to furbolg on lvl 2 that can cause a bit of leak (pyro and blood orc warrior notably), assuming you can even get a furbolg without saving. Theres other problems that could occur, such as unexpected overbuild or simply miscalculation with units of similar clear time. I rarely play 1 v 1 because it is usually pretty boring for me.

HighestIncome wrote:

In the end, i would like to read your opinion about this idea:
'So my idea was, go to the single player and make some good income (alchemist, archer, yggdrasil, ect.) tower and then measure time it needs to beat lvl 1. Then write down all those time recordings (my brainless friend asked me 'what if he builds behind, then your time wont fit', lol start measuring when first crab dies). Then when you play 1v1, you can be sure that your opponent wont have any send, so you dont send anything. Then you use stopwatch and measure time that he needs to beat lvl 1, and by that you can know if he has SOME of imba towers that you recorded time for. If he has, you can know the critical lvl for him and what to send. If he doesnt have any of imba towers, than, its good because of that he doesnt.'

Best Regards, HI

HighestIncome, interesting idea.

But you can see the opponents units anyway after the Arena-Fights, so you don't need to scout like that way.

One more thing about scouting:

I think it's important to scout, because then you know what summons you need to send to make your opponents in trouble.

For example in round 12 you can send Gargoyls (if they got units with normal armored units like Hades) or you can send Ballistas (if they got units with lesser normal armored units like Pyro and especially Yggdrasil, because they got siege-attack).

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Best regards ... pl4c3m3n7

This idea is useful before first arena. I will give you perfect example: Prophet 1v1, you measure time and realise that your opponent has Alchemist. So now, there is only one right way to play with alchemist/blasters. But lvl5 is kinda hard, because if you get fulborg your blasters (you should have two of them on lvl 5) will never lasthit and you will leak hard, and that will screw your further build and your income. After lvl 10 its other story, then 'all' cards are on table