X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
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X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
von_Oberstain Tue May 03, 2011 8:33 pm
As promised, but (expectedly) late, a look inside X3 economy, and its problems:
NOTE:
Wisp system is identical to old worker one, except it allows more than ~26/3 (opinions vary) workers to be used. While lumbering upgrades may be discussed, system itself stays as it is, unless PROVEN that it is different from old one.
basic economy:
level income = creeps/summons (1) + end bounty (2) + income (3) + king/hg (4) + gg (5)
in X3, (1) is tripled, and (2) is not, compared to X1. this leads to steady level income decline in X3, which stabilizes at 85%, compared to X1. non-strangely, it somewhat correlates to 'gg' value of incomer, divided by other players
in X3, creep gold is never lost (it's there either from 'gg' or king/hg), it rather appears from thin air to supplement incomplete economy.
in X1, worker-based economy is a must for a player who intends to survive more than 20-24 levels - at level ~20, gold gained by income surpasses creep+end bounty, and becomes main source of gold. this does not happen in x3, while it should (to my opinion, at least)
first conclusion:
constant 15% gold reduction is not enough to play higher levels (adequately).
'gg' mode
previous 'gg' mode used to overcome gold loss, and encourage both incomer and low-worker economy. current 'gg' mode does not suffice for normal economy, and rewards incoming less (in team terms) or more (for incomer)
second conclusion:
as 'gg' actually doesn't punish bad play (leaks) OR incomers (as it does in X1). therefore, it was rightfully nerfed. however, additional gold it provided was needed to some extent to keep gold flow normal.
X1 incomer history and implications:
those who don't remember this:
- X1 used to be a lot more 'noob friendly' - players who leaked were awarded with more end-level gold to encourage their recovery
- X1 allowed incomers (through end-level gold), which were a bit too good and became obligatory
- problem was solved by reducing end-level gold, and increasing creature bounty. Incomers become less viable (and much less used), but game also become harder to play for beginners (both from much harder recovery, and from incomer nerf - new player couldn't play incomer and learn game mechanics)
X3, incomers and recovery
as discussed above, incomers were necessity to complement defect economy, and X3 is even harder to recover when in trouble - mind that end-level gold is the same as in X1 (1/3 of what it should be) and only fraction of what used to be it's initial, recovery-friendly value. as any change in end-level gold would impact incomers as well, alternative solution has to be found (discussed below, hopefully with players input as well)
possible solutions
1. end-level bounty increase three-times / wisp hard-locked for incomers (example 3+level up to level 10, then no lock)
2. bounties returned to old lisk values (before change) / wisp hard-locked
3. bounties changed to somewhere in between / less restrictive wisp hard-lock (this needs experimenting and beta-tester team, unlike previous two)
other possibilities / comments
1. removal of 20% hp bonus for first 9 levels - encourages players to develop their own worker-based economies, instead relying on incomers/gg
2. removal of any hp bonuses for 'most feared' levels, instead re-balancing units (this goes mostly for races having troubles with magic levels)
3. reducing starting lumber in X2 and X3 to 50/70 (or 45/60, OR removing increase entirely - why it was brought in the first place? to enable early farm or other reason? non-dino/aura in level 1/2 means safer gameplay and encourages regular income. also, only full/part incomer would be able to send these early)
cb
races *should* have distinctive gameplay - some are vulnerable to magic, but strong against fortified. they overcome their respective difficult levels by building more towers, and use their strengths to improve economy. by solving general economy problem (and with potential nerf of some critical levels), this should become possible in X3 as well.
if economy problems are solved (and, possibly, more beginner-friendly approach is taken), both 'cb' and 'gg' in it's current form can be removed entirely, leaving game more balanced and easier for beginners, while experienced players would keep advantages of better knowledge through gains of better economy.
please feel free to discuss and expected next beta to have economy fix
sincerely,
von_Oberstain
NOTE:
Wisp system is identical to old worker one, except it allows more than ~26/3 (opinions vary) workers to be used. While lumbering upgrades may be discussed, system itself stays as it is, unless PROVEN that it is different from old one.
basic economy:
level income = creeps/summons (1) + end bounty (2) + income (3) + king/hg (4) + gg (5)
in X3, (1) is tripled, and (2) is not, compared to X1. this leads to steady level income decline in X3, which stabilizes at 85%, compared to X1. non-strangely, it somewhat correlates to 'gg' value of incomer, divided by other players
in X3, creep gold is never lost (it's there either from 'gg' or king/hg), it rather appears from thin air to supplement incomplete economy.
in X1, worker-based economy is a must for a player who intends to survive more than 20-24 levels - at level ~20, gold gained by income surpasses creep+end bounty, and becomes main source of gold. this does not happen in x3, while it should (to my opinion, at least)
first conclusion:
constant 15% gold reduction is not enough to play higher levels (adequately).
'gg' mode
previous 'gg' mode used to overcome gold loss, and encourage both incomer and low-worker economy. current 'gg' mode does not suffice for normal economy, and rewards incoming less (in team terms) or more (for incomer)
second conclusion:
as 'gg' actually doesn't punish bad play (leaks) OR incomers (as it does in X1). therefore, it was rightfully nerfed. however, additional gold it provided was needed to some extent to keep gold flow normal.
X1 incomer history and implications:
those who don't remember this:
- X1 used to be a lot more 'noob friendly' - players who leaked were awarded with more end-level gold to encourage their recovery
- X1 allowed incomers (through end-level gold), which were a bit too good and became obligatory
- problem was solved by reducing end-level gold, and increasing creature bounty. Incomers become less viable (and much less used), but game also become harder to play for beginners (both from much harder recovery, and from incomer nerf - new player couldn't play incomer and learn game mechanics)
X3, incomers and recovery
as discussed above, incomers were necessity to complement defect economy, and X3 is even harder to recover when in trouble - mind that end-level gold is the same as in X1 (1/3 of what it should be) and only fraction of what used to be it's initial, recovery-friendly value. as any change in end-level gold would impact incomers as well, alternative solution has to be found (discussed below, hopefully with players input as well)
possible solutions
1. end-level bounty increase three-times / wisp hard-locked for incomers (example 3+level up to level 10, then no lock)
2. bounties returned to old lisk values (before change) / wisp hard-locked
3. bounties changed to somewhere in between / less restrictive wisp hard-lock (this needs experimenting and beta-tester team, unlike previous two)
other possibilities / comments
1. removal of 20% hp bonus for first 9 levels - encourages players to develop their own worker-based economies, instead relying on incomers/gg
2. removal of any hp bonuses for 'most feared' levels, instead re-balancing units (this goes mostly for races having troubles with magic levels)
3. reducing starting lumber in X2 and X3 to 50/70 (or 45/60, OR removing increase entirely - why it was brought in the first place? to enable early farm or other reason? non-dino/aura in level 1/2 means safer gameplay and encourages regular income. also, only full/part incomer would be able to send these early)
cb
races *should* have distinctive gameplay - some are vulnerable to magic, but strong against fortified. they overcome their respective difficult levels by building more towers, and use their strengths to improve economy. by solving general economy problem (and with potential nerf of some critical levels), this should become possible in X3 as well.
if economy problems are solved (and, possibly, more beginner-friendly approach is taken), both 'cb' and 'gg' in it's current form can be removed entirely, leaving game more balanced and easier for beginners, while experienced players would keep advantages of better knowledge through gains of better economy.
please feel free to discuss and expected next beta to have economy fix
sincerely,
von_Oberstain
Last edited by von_Oberstain on Wed May 04, 2011 8:54 am; edited 1 time in total
von_Oberstain- Admin
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
Fink Wed May 04, 2011 8:50 am
I think that removal of HP bonuses for lvl 14 would be a good fix, or specific levels rather. I don't feel that the 20% HP bonus should be removed for the entirety of 1-9 is necessary. I think that reducing the starting lumber would be a resonable fix for the beginning levels so that a Dino can't be sent on lvl 1 and cause issues for players that aren't prepared for it. Maybe making the starting lumber 60 would be enough of a fix. I am still not sure what to do about the GG mode however, and was there going to be -Dual Builder mode implements into the 2.8 or is that not going to happen? I think that a dual builder mode would be a great addition to the game over -CB mode. It would incourage people to learn more races I feel from the start knowing which races have a good early game between the 2 they are given and which one would be stronger later game or for specific levels even. I do notice a consistancy however with games ending before 14 very often and most of that ending on 14 too. I feel that lvl 11-14 may need a slight nerf, I ususally don't leak those levels however I can't account for 3 other leakers on them due to not having enough overbuilt units to account for my leaking teammates. Most of that issue being with GG mode and i'm not sure if these proposed economy fixes will help solve that issue.
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so.... this "CB" mode
nicolbolas>jace Wed May 04, 2011 3:47 pm
i have a fix! you can keep it in... make it cost 1000 lumber to change (no gold) and make it gives -25 income
you have introduced something that has
A- made this mode viable, people can have multiple races... at the cost of 75 (50 from not spending lumber on 20L=1income, 25 from reduction) income every time they switch races
B- this encourages people to get income....
you have introduced something that has
A- made this mode viable, people can have multiple races... at the cost of 75 (50 from not spending lumber on 20L=1income, 25 from reduction) income every time they switch races
B- this encourages people to get income....
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
HuanAk Wed May 04, 2011 3:59 pm
Income :
- give them high lumber rate, but lower effective of income (eg wave difficult increase faster than income)
- give them high lumber rate, but lower income from summon(100 gold per 3 income).
Bonus gold :
- should change to lower effective of income (eg, bonus gold as Total GOld(include income) change form 1% to 30%)
GG :
- don't know, still try out my new idea in next version.
- give them high lumber rate, but lower effective of income (eg wave difficult increase faster than income)
- give them high lumber rate, but lower income from summon(100 gold per 3 income).
Bonus gold :
- should change to lower effective of income (eg, bonus gold as Total GOld(include income) change form 1% to 30%)
GG :
- don't know, still try out my new idea in next version.
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
von_Oberstain Thu May 05, 2011 2:50 am
point is to keep 'cb' mode out, as eGze requested, yet provide income-based economy. X3 jumps straight into 200+ creep bounty gold, so large amount of workers is required relatively early into game, to enable worker-income comparable (and later exceeding) creep bounty. therefore, making starting levels easier would make possible for players to produce 2+ workers per round up to some level (9 was mentioned, but it could also be lower, if proven too powerful), which would result in some 15+ workers at first boss (come to think of this, hard-lock would need to be bigger than 15).
resulting economy should be strong enough to support overbuilding at racially-critical levels, removing the need for changing builders entirely.
hard-lock on workers was considered second best solution in incomer witch-hunt in X1.
ideal solution, in my opinion would be to make incomer viable, and neither mandatory (as in currently in X3) nor underpowered (as in X1 now), which probably won't happen, especially without extensive live testing... but it's worth a trial-error, i think.
economy fix is intended to make X3 economy comparable to X1 (which is pretty balanced now), with possible changes which will bring old 1.3 beginner-friendly bounty ratios, either for starting levels (say, up to 9), or entirely.
at the same time, good players would benefit from better economy, but this would happen in mid-to-late game, extending the average duration of games (one of most common complaints after 2.7)
resulting economy should be strong enough to support overbuilding at racially-critical levels, removing the need for changing builders entirely.
hard-lock on workers was considered second best solution in incomer witch-hunt in X1.
ideal solution, in my opinion would be to make incomer viable, and neither mandatory (as in currently in X3) nor underpowered (as in X1 now), which probably won't happen, especially without extensive live testing... but it's worth a trial-error, i think.
economy fix is intended to make X3 economy comparable to X1 (which is pretty balanced now), with possible changes which will bring old 1.3 beginner-friendly bounty ratios, either for starting levels (say, up to 9), or entirely.
at the same time, good players would benefit from better economy, but this would happen in mid-to-late game, extending the average duration of games (one of most common complaints after 2.7)
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
nicolbolas>jace Thu May 05, 2011 4:30 am
But income isn't underpowered in x1. If u strait income it is, u gotta build til level 5-7 and sell all.... It works really well... 5-6/1 on 4....
However I do know that it is underpowered/not needed In x3
However I do know that it is underpowered/not needed In x3
Last edited by nicolbolas>jace on Thu May 05, 2011 5:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
von_Oberstain Thu May 05, 2011 5:09 am
true, it's not totally underpowered, but it's only shadow of its former self. i see incomers about 1 in 20 (or more) games nowadays.
i kinda liked incomers in x1, since one bad player wasn't ruining the game - they usually volunteered to income, but almost everyone else hated them so much...
i kinda liked incomers in x1, since one bad player wasn't ruining the game - they usually volunteered to income, but almost everyone else hated them so much...
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
nicolbolas>jace Thu May 05, 2011 5:25 am
von_Oberstain wrote:true, it's not totally underpowered, but it's only shadow of its former self. i see incomers about 1 in 20 (or more) games nowadays.
i kinda liked incomers in x1, since one bad player wasn't ruining the game - they usually volunteered to income, but almost everyone else hated them so much...
That's not due foot being weak, that's due to people getting better as whole, AND peole not trying build to income... But In 1.40 and before I could send 2 krakens on level 13.... (saving involved ofc) most sell to income builds I use can max income by 18.... it's the players not trying it, plus 4 semi's own 2semi's overbuilt and incomes...
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
von_Oberstain Thu May 05, 2011 7:34 am
thank you kindly for being so active in this discussion, you're being promoted to pinhead status!
with increased respect comes an increased responsibility, so how about filling the spot on UE balance thread you reserved some months ago in official forum, or showing up on skype (like, ever, i'll leave my computer on), we have other business to discuss as well.
we have to make more-or-less official (RC-1 or 1.00) UE till 16th, that is when chaos comes to judge me...
with increased respect comes an increased responsibility, so how about filling the spot on UE balance thread you reserved some months ago in official forum, or showing up on skype (like, ever, i'll leave my computer on), we have other business to discuss as well.
we have to make more-or-less official (RC-1 or 1.00) UE till 16th, that is when chaos comes to judge me...
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
nicolbolas>jace Thu May 05, 2011 2:27 pm
von_Oberstain wrote:thank you kindly for being so active in this discussion, you're being promoted to pinhead status!
with increased respect comes an increased responsibility, so how about filling the spot on UE balance thread you reserved some months ago in official forum, or showing up on skype (like, ever, i'll leave my computer on), we have other business to discuss as well.
we have to make more-or-less official (RC-1 or 1.00) UE till 16th, that is when chaos comes to judge me...
I am about to have over 25 more hours of free time a week, increased from 0. Starting next week I will be on skype as much as possible as well as catching up to replies, contributing etc.
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
von_Oberstain Fri May 06, 2011 4:25 am
NOTE:
This is NOT beginning of any 'reign of terror' from my side (as an administrator), nick is a friend and a coworker from LegionTD UE (beside, picture can be removed from user control panel). so discuss freely, UNLESS you are UE team-member who has due responsibilities
anyway, you can expect economy fix on or during following weekend, based on principles mentioned above, partial bugfix and tooltip fix, slight balance changes etc. but focus is on economy comparable to X1.
This is NOT beginning of any 'reign of terror' from my side (as an administrator), nick is a friend and a coworker from LegionTD UE (beside, picture can be removed from user control panel). so discuss freely, UNLESS you are UE team-member who has due responsibilities
anyway, you can expect economy fix on or during following weekend, based on principles mentioned above, partial bugfix and tooltip fix, slight balance changes etc. but focus is on economy comparable to X1.
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
guy4 Sat May 07, 2011 12:37 am
Hi, just a couple of things I thought I would mention - don't know how you feel about them (just my humble opinions):
X3 waves doesnt "lose" income as such (even though end round gold is the same as 1* wave), although mathematically it is that way. 2 reasons for this. In 3 * waves its easier to income e.g. if you build 6 workers and 1 upgrade by lvl10 in 1 X wave thats decent, but in 3X waves thats average to below par. 9 workers and upgrade + is decent. The other reason is that because you can build strong tier units without saving (much earlier) it is more efficient. E.g. mek's cyborg is their most efficient unit dps and hp per gold combined. Usually in 1 x waves these are critical for level 14 and 15 but cant be obtained easily before then. Whereas in 3X waves you can build them any time.
Regarding CB – I know the intention is to eliminate it totally due to abuse, but this can be reworked in many many ways to make it balanced. And it’s a really nice concept. Even something like the dual builder mode in your other version is really nice. Just adds variety. Most modes Egze came up with are really good just need tweaking so as not to be imba.
X3 waves doesnt "lose" income as such (even though end round gold is the same as 1* wave), although mathematically it is that way. 2 reasons for this. In 3 * waves its easier to income e.g. if you build 6 workers and 1 upgrade by lvl10 in 1 X wave thats decent, but in 3X waves thats average to below par. 9 workers and upgrade + is decent. The other reason is that because you can build strong tier units without saving (much earlier) it is more efficient. E.g. mek's cyborg is their most efficient unit dps and hp per gold combined. Usually in 1 x waves these are critical for level 14 and 15 but cant be obtained easily before then. Whereas in 3X waves you can build them any time.
Regarding CB – I know the intention is to eliminate it totally due to abuse, but this can be reworked in many many ways to make it balanced. And it’s a really nice concept. Even something like the dual builder mode in your other version is really nice. Just adds variety. Most modes Egze came up with are really good just need tweaking so as not to be imba.
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
von_Oberstain Sat May 07, 2011 7:36 pm
thank you for reply.
in x1, income gold surpasses wave gold ~lvl20 (for decent players), and even for bad ones, lvl30 lumber income is greater than wave. since in x3 waves reach 300-400g relatively early (between lvl10-20), it think it should be followed by similar lumber income - ability to income well is what makes difference between good and bad players (or teams) in x1.
with 9/1 at lvl10, i think there is no chance players can get near wave income until the end of game (especially with increased wave worth) - please correct me if i'm wrong, i don't know x3 middle/lategame well enough, so all this may yet be changed
anyway, idea was to make incomers viable, but not obligatory (what if he leaves/disconnects? game is probably over, again correct me if i'm wrong). with 'gg' mode nerfed, there is less gold altogether, which will consequently lower lumber income, so some kind of compensation should exist. i admit this is rather radical change (though it was working in the past).
also, i was promised help in beta testing by a x3 clan, so we can see how it function in real games soon...
in x1, income gold surpasses wave gold ~lvl20 (for decent players), and even for bad ones, lvl30 lumber income is greater than wave. since in x3 waves reach 300-400g relatively early (between lvl10-20), it think it should be followed by similar lumber income - ability to income well is what makes difference between good and bad players (or teams) in x1.
with 9/1 at lvl10, i think there is no chance players can get near wave income until the end of game (especially with increased wave worth) - please correct me if i'm wrong, i don't know x3 middle/lategame well enough, so all this may yet be changed
anyway, idea was to make incomers viable, but not obligatory (what if he leaves/disconnects? game is probably over, again correct me if i'm wrong). with 'gg' mode nerfed, there is less gold altogether, which will consequently lower lumber income, so some kind of compensation should exist. i admit this is rather radical change (though it was working in the past).
also, i was promised help in beta testing by a x3 clan, so we can see how it function in real games soon...
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Re: X3 economy - addresses gg, incomers, cb
ZinGir Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:46 am
I dont know whats wrong with the modes now i sem to win every game i play incommers or not you need skill and nothing more i just beat a team with 3 incommers ez all i hear and see is ppl who lost(have no skill) to an incommer nothing is wrong with the current modes so far i can see
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my $.02
nicolbolas>jace Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:59 am
i think that CB made the game more interesting, i think that it doesn't help players later--but you need to give it a 10 minute cooldown or something. i think it helps people who play the mode x3. but a cooldown/high lumber cost/subtracting income/etc is needed, i believe i stated this earlier. I have a better idea, now (about 2 minutes after posting this -_-)!!! make it, so that you can use the ability to change builder, but only once-- on level 10 (if it is 20 levels) level 15 (if 30 levels) and level 20 (if it is 40 levels)
this is made assuming that you are using the same -aphg(any other modes)20/30/40 as you are in legionTD UE.
I also think that you might lower worker prices slightly in x3? because 3 times the creeps shouldn't be = to 50% more workers. lets say the extra gold makes it so you get 250% of gold from X1 (were 100% is in X1) work counts should be at lesat 12/1, or 200%.
i don't have many ideas, besides making wisps (workers) cheaper, making it so summons give between 1.5 and 2.0 times the amount of gold when you kill VS income they provide (making income a larger part of the total gold, in a way)
i think if you are to take away the 20% buff, instead you should make it into a 10% for level 1-10, 15% for level 11-20 and 20% for level 21-41. this makes the game become gradually harder while making income easier to get earlier, and harder to get later.
just throwing ideas around, good luck making a truly balanced X3 map.
this is made assuming that you are using the same -aphg(any other modes)20/30/40 as you are in legionTD UE.
I also think that you might lower worker prices slightly in x3? because 3 times the creeps shouldn't be = to 50% more workers. lets say the extra gold makes it so you get 250% of gold from X1 (were 100% is in X1) work counts should be at lesat 12/1, or 200%.
i don't have many ideas, besides making wisps (workers) cheaper, making it so summons give between 1.5 and 2.0 times the amount of gold when you kill VS income they provide (making income a larger part of the total gold, in a way)
i think if you are to take away the 20% buff, instead you should make it into a 10% for level 1-10, 15% for level 11-20 and 20% for level 21-41. this makes the game become gradually harder while making income easier to get earlier, and harder to get later.
just throwing ideas around, good luck making a truly balanced X3 map.
Last edited by nicolbolas>jace on Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:05 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : new idea, first edit. realizing there was a "strikethrough" option was the second edit.)
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Biggest problem
Fitos Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:16 am
in Legion TD is this:
CB
Yes, cb needs to be removed, but, being a person who NEVER uses it, I have noticed a bad side-effect. You have to over-build, which means that at some point some of your creeps will stay behind and go fighting only when the enemy has destroyed your first guys. In other words, mass-building has a very definitive negative side-effect. If you can sort this out, by making all creaures go toward spawn point regardless of placement, for example, then you have an idea.
CB
Yes, cb needs to be removed, but, being a person who NEVER uses it, I have noticed a bad side-effect. You have to over-build, which means that at some point some of your creeps will stay behind and go fighting only when the enemy has destroyed your first guys. In other words, mass-building has a very definitive negative side-effect. If you can sort this out, by making all creaures go toward spawn point regardless of placement, for example, then you have an idea.
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