Lumber saving discussion thread.

[sunderkeenin]

Since we can't discuss it any more in HI's challenge thread lest we ruin its original purpose I've made this thread.
My opinion is that lumber saving has been a huge problem. -ns was introduced to fix it, and became the NORM for a very good reason, promoting fair play without certain doom due to unfairly large lumber drops on certain rounds, for example the players in 2.7b who would send 2-3 krakens on wave 7 by saving as an incomer. That's just plain out unfair. In 3.41/3.5 we have the people who saving for 12-17 to send 2 demons each, guaranteeing a loss even with a maxed king sometimes. Lumber Saving has been one of the biggest issues LTD has ever had,and due to the removal of ns by Egze, and thelack of HuanAK re-adding it it has quickly returned to a problem status. Give me reasons that can prove it doesn't ruin the games. If you want to have a proper end-game there IS NO COUNTER IT. I mean really. How do I get income while handing a demon on 17 without leaking at the same times? Lumber saving severely reduces income of both teams, and for that alone it ought to be stopped. Lumber saving has ended enough games in 2.7b and 3.41 that it becme a focal point that defined noobliness on multiple bots, communities, and even in Garena a bit if I've heard right. Is there a proper argument TOWARDS this cancer of LTD?

[HighestIncome]

Thanks for moving this discussion out of my original post about 2v2 challenge. I won't discuss on this, because you all know my opinion on this. Solution to this is simple for me: Before game starts say rule "lumber save is forbidden". If you still have a saver use "!kick (saver name)" if you are an admin, and if you are not, simply use "-VK". 


Best Regards, HI

[Danavortil]

You are right, in a 4v4 game level 17 with double demon can end games even with maxed king most of the time...

But there's one strategy to beat this long saves. If you want to deal with some heavy sends on dangerous levels, you should make one side strong enough to hold. This could be level 17,20 or 27, doesnt matter. For level 17, that requires about 5500 value on strong side. And the other side would be about 3k value. for example; red player builds on blue after level 14, until level 17.  Weak side leaks most of the wave, but strong side can hold even even with demon/demons. And you could even catch some of weak side's leaks.

About 2v2, maxed king can hold level 17 even with heavy sends, if you have decent values. And yeah unfortunately, you won't be able to push 7/15 everygame as long as you dont wanna lose. I understand your enthusiasm to reach high incomes but IMO you're not meant to reach 7/15 in every game, only with some special builds...

[2005_TD]

Lumber save is "high risk, high reward" strategy in my opinion, because if you don't win at that level you saved for, you are screwed because you lost much gold by not sending each level. If your 'incomers' on the other side survive, your chances to win after that are close to zero. HighestIncome's 'kick' solution is a bit extreme imo, but if you say a rule before game starts, it seems ok to kick someone who breaks rule.

[Hate2Lose]

I won't post in HI's challenge request regarding lumber saving and what not.  In my honest opinion, lumber saving actually makes the game a lot more intricate.  If you think about it, you have to always prepare yourself (team) to be able to counter at any given time.  You will have to know when to up your value for towers (rather than normal pub games), when to up king, when to send to counter their sends, etc.  There are sooo many differences that this enables, it will change the game-play, hence the meta will change as well and so will the strategies.  It's not going to be who can have the best income by the end of the game, which team will have the highest value, etc.  It's about WINNING and ending the game.  There are no rules stating it needs to get past lvl 30,31,32.  

I've played plenty of games where we lumber save.  In Ent (where I play) lumber saving is a norm, sending every round is for noobs.  Sure in pub games most games will lose before lvl 20, but in LIHL (where the above average - pros play) majority of the times (85-90%) of the games will go past lvl 24.  AND WE LUMBER SAVE.  There are ways to counter dd, massing, etc.  You just need to play and figure out what strategies work best and it will come.  Just some small strats for you to think about and endure.  You can cross build, duo-build, stack build.  Not going into detail about the build strats, but those will work.

[tauceti]

This discussion is just pointless but to be honest with myself i need to agree more with guy from ENT.
Im playing on bots when there is no saving coz i just like it. Saving wood is just a way to win that i personally do not like. ENT bot have a win/loss ratio so players there rly want to win no matter on what round 7 10 12 13 14 etc.But i dont rly care who win or loss if i play a fair and funny game till round 31 so im not saving lumber. In fact ENT bot is more competitive but i dont like it coz its less fun for me.

[Jinn.CN]

In China we play LAN games without lumbersave, we play hp v3.5 with -ns mode. Sunderkenin you are right, lumbersave is cancer of this game. 

干杯

[Hate2Lose]

It's funny how you guys call it noob and cancerous to the game, when clearly it's a strategy.  It's not noob to lumber save.  Let me guess cross-building, duo-building is noob too?  

So basically back when Street Fighter 2 was popular and in tournaments players were throwing fireballs, let me guess, you guys called them noob/lame/cheezy, unable to play the game, etc?  It's a strategy.....learn to deal with it.  They are playing for the win nothing else.  Learn to adapt to the change and strategy of the game.

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