About saving and massing in 3.5 Beta

About saving and massing in 3.5 Beta

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This is in reference to the discussion here:
(link) legiontd.forumotion.com/t454-a-few-suggestions-and-a-little-discussion-v35b6

And this thread on ENT's forum:
(link) entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24591

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Most of the changes in Beta 5 and 6 are pretty uncontroversial and straightforward, such as unit balance adjustments and getting rid of the antistuck bug abuse (what a pain that was).

But people are very much divided on the matters of "saving" and "massing".

It would seem that some players have naturally gravitated toward those bots whose rules (written or unwritten) align with their own way of playing.

That is, ENT players seems to really like saving and massing, and considers it part of the game. Some other communities don't like it. And some even put up specific rules against it, making it a bannable offense.

Putting up rules is not ideal. You can't really blame people for playing a map one way or another (unless we're talking blatant bug abuse, such as antistuck). It's just not practical.

The mechanics of the map should define the rules of the game, so as to avoid conflicts and misunderstanding.

Anyhow. We, as map developers, have taken the stance that saving and massing does not belong in the game, and that this should be enforced by the map. I will not argue the merits of that here, but instead politely suggest that people stick to good old 3.41 if they prefer that map.

I'm sorry that the direction we're taking with the map does not fit with the way that some of you guys (and girls) like to play. But that's the way it's going to be, going forward. Many other things are totally up for debate though.

Perhaps, in time, other improvements to the map will offset your dislike with these recent changes to saving/massing.

For what it's worth, the -ns mode is optional (but the massing prevention is not). So to clarify, -ns is default, which also includes all the mode shortcuts such as -ap, but you can always specify an exact mode to get what you want without -ns (example: -apgmcb).

Also please keep in mind that this is still just a "beta" version meant for testing (although Clan UC has now begun hosting B6 instead of 3.41, because their members feel it's a better map).

There will be bugs, and certain parts of the game might change drastically as we try out new things. We will of course try to maintain the successful aspects of the game, but we will not limit ourself creatively or otherwise, just to satisfy what people are used to. This is a new map after all.

Hopefully, most of the changes will be appreciated in the long run.

A big thank you to everybody who is taking an interest in the map. Please continue to report bugs and share your feedback on this forum. We might not all agree on everything all the time, but the discussion is appreciated none the less.

Just recently I had a game without ns (3.41) and one of the guys on the other team went income (middle building) and saved from lvl 10 to lvl 14. He sent 7 warlocks 2 pudges, and I think a furbolg or 2 on lvl 14. I've never seen save that bad on lvl 14 but wow is that hard to survive. Granted I had 7/10 at the time with only ~2500 value so I could barely hold without send but with all that save we leaked more than half our waves and sadly had already lost our heals to mass on lvl 10.

You pushed income too hard obviously.

supersexyy wrote:You pushed income too hard obviously.

7 warlocks, 2 pudges, 2 furbolgs.

That's 2100+800+280 lumber, or 3180 lumber at level 14. Who is expected to hold that? Who the fuck? What do you expect? Him to murder his income by being 1k overvalue?

If one guy sent that much, it doesn't translate to Norton receiving that much...
The guy was an 'incomer' so the builder on his lane has considerable lower income so probably sent half that at best.

Hi guys, I think Norton maybe would have hold it if he had perhaps 7/8 and ~2900 value. It depends on what units he had as well. He could even be overbuild for lv 14, and then income all gold from level 14 and 15. Maybe not that effective, but then again, maybe he wouldn't have lost so early.
Anyway, such high lumbers, playing against mid..... I believe that Norton's team would most likely had won that match if they ever went to the final levels. Anyway,How many ppl were playing this match Norton 


...and talkin about mids, Yea, I believe supersexy gotta a point, One of them always get lower wisps/lumber, while one usually have same wisp/lumber than one good player on a lane aloneand 'cause of that I don't think is that worth to mid anyway. I also think it's possible for both mid players to have good wisps, but I think it's much easier to do it alone(also much more reliable).

Yeah, I agree with everything you said, and I made a suggestion which I hope it will benefit both worlds.

Let's hope for the best.

Thank. God.

No save is 100% needed in x3 versions. People don't even play legion to play anymore, they play to get people to quit on level 3 or 7, or to end the game on level 14, 17, 20, or 28 (but 90% of the time it's level 14). And it happens Every. Single. Game. Saving and massing means you want the game to end, it means you don't want to play the game. If you don't want to play, don't join. It's not "strategic", it's not "part of the game", it's cheap. Half the time I'm on a team that is 7/4, 7/4, 7/5 and 7/5 by level 14, we haven't leaked a unit, then on 14, the other team who is something like 6/0, 4/2, 7/1, 5/0 and has been leaking 20+ all game decides to save 10-14, and my team, the team with skill, the team who knows how to income, the team who doesn't leak, leaks 50 and we lose to a crap team because of a cheap save.

It's either that or I get berated by my team for not saving, for "not being a team player" because I refuse to LAME (I also don't mass wolverine or archers; that often bites me in the ass when the other team LAMES).

I couldn't care less about 2 laning (or "crossing" as it's called now), I don't even care about -gg. Saving ruins the game. Or should I say, it ruins the half game.

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Let's assume you're really good, fast at incoming, you get lucky units and you are able to get 70 income by level 10... A little high from what I usually see, not by much, but you got really lucky and were able to harvest a Demons worth of lumber.

Notice how you can't send a Demon on level 10 because it would be extremely cheap and no matter how much you tried to counter it there'd be absolutely no way to kill a Demon on level 10. Since it's impossible to kill a Demon on level 10, how are you going to counter, say, 7 Chariots and a Whelp? Or 8 Wyverns? Or 12 Dinos? 10 Furbs and a Hermit? You know, a Demon's worth of sends all at once on a level that was intended for maybe 2 Dinos worth of sends?

Saving ruins the game.

Lol....this post

@angry_chair

First of all, if anyone says (or get suspicious) that i made fake account named "angry_chair" and posted that, I will make sure you get a ban here

Anyways, trying to say that i'm 99% agreed, except for that 70 income on level 10. I mean first arena 120-150 income, no questions asked.


Best Regards,

HighestIncome

HighestIncome wrote:
First of all, if anyone says (or get suspicious) that i made fake account named "angry_chair" and posted that, I will make sure you get a ban here

you did though.

i dont see what's funny about that post. i obviously wasn't talking about you then, was i? i obviously wasn't talking about people who write legion guides, and keep track of records, or frequent legion forums. im talking about the other 99.9999999% of legion players.

x1 is still the better version that takes more skill anyway, too bad it never fills.

angry_chair wrote:
x1 is still the better version that takes more skill anyway, too bad it never fills.

Alright, lets keep it on topic, shall we?

angry_chair wrote:. im talking about the other 99.9999999% of legion players.

HighestIncome wrote:
Anyways, trying to say that i'm 99% agreed, except for that 70 income on level 10. I mean first arena 120-150 income, no questions asked.

I guess what he meant was that massing weak sends combined to saving tactics can be done disregarding play skill and anyone can be hit and leak because of it. Doesn't matter if you're playing only 0.01% of the legion games... but I'd rather if we stick to the other 99.9% regular legion games.

As said earlier, Mega lumber is hard to keep an eye upon, so eventually you'll lose track of your opponents wood... and most likely get caught off guard with tons of sends.

NERV wrote:
Alright, lets keep it on topic, shall we?

sorry just didnt want some guy who inhouse 2v2's picking an imba race on a broken version thinking he was actually good at this game. call me naive, i've only been playing for 6 years, but im not sure why that screenshot of an "income record" shows both units in front of king and at at starting point... with an extra wave going down middle? even though both team mates took their wave? as both red and blue have units in front of king?

legitimate questions. i can't download replay. but that picture looks like youre taking an extra wave, then bragging about being good? but that's a self-proclaimed "world income record"? is that even a legit version?

you're right , i'm off topic now. thanks for the -ns, it's long over due, i could've done without the condescending ass hole reply. that's all i wanted to say.

lol if anyone thought i would reply to myself as such a condescending ass hole acting better than anyone who has ever played this game, enjoy your ban. i've got a "world income record" in a version where i take x6 in a cheap 2v2 and im better than all of you. enjoy your ban. wanna see more of my "world income records" you can download more videos of me 2v2'ing my friends who let me 7/15 by level 10 and don't do anything challenging, in an unofficial, unlegitimate version where i can take x6 waves in 2v2

Hello everyone

There are some good points both for and against the matter. Our opinion can be seen in the 1st post, and i will therefore not comment any further on this.

I believe the last couple of posts went off topic, so consider this thread Closed

Best Regards

Kongk

Hello

Somebody wanted to continue this discussion in a constructive way.. So it has been Unlocked

Dont go off topic again though..

Best Regards
Kongk

Saving Shouldnt exist for many reasons:

1) The most important is that by saving skill has nothing to do with winning like angry chair said even if u are the best player in the world and lumber fast w/o leaks and max ur king and blablabla if enemy team saves and u get the hell in 17 f.e. then no matter what u did u can only leak it`s simply imposible t have good lumber and resistance to saving at the same time, such thing as heavy builder to counter saving id nothing but talk every1 should hit 7/15 before 20, o at least 7-11-12.

2) Why do u join a game with only purpuse to ruin it? the only thing u do by saving is ending the game, with u as winner ofc but if u didnt want t play why join game at first place? Such wins are nothing but craps if u are good player make ur own game good dont ruin ur enemy`s game, also every1 can see each other`s stats, when i saw some "top" player`s stats in such bot i couldnt stop laughing, not only they had more than bad stats but their avrg wave was 15 or so, which means these players did nothing but ruining games( i met some1 of them in a game at 10 he was 6-1 or 6-2 but they saved from waves 10-17 and they won) at 17 i already had 7-16(with none famous income unit) with leaks only at 12 and few mobs at 7 ofc i expected t leak waves 17-20 but they saved so much every1 leaked the hell and we lost even with maxed king( my team had normal to bad lumbers they didnt deserve to leak here with thier values they had) so even if u want to save DO NOT call urselves good players.

3)Saving also makes the game anoying, it makes ppl quite the game, only few would stay if they had furbolg on wave 3(dont tell me anything about ent players) which is insane problem since teams become unbalanced and then saving becomes even stronger since enemies get more sents.

4)Sometimes severs flame the teammates and demand them to save 2 and arquments start e.t.c. angry chair said this 2.

5)Saving make ppl noobs, no1 tries t make himself better, they all say -look at thier lumbers, they are good
-np let`s save for 14
-ok
and game ends there they dont try to become better players they try t ruin the game and ofc they do the same in all thier games( after all there is no reason to be good since u can always save and win no matter what)

6) because -os has no -ns no1 plays the map as it is now so practicaly the changes u made are all wasted Where ,btw,is a bug with king hp that`s probably very known, when ur team has leaver then the extra king hp goes to enemy team very big bug. Ns mode should get added to os mode 2, after all ent player play 3.41, no reason to dirty new versions.

Hello tasos and the other ppl who think saving still shouldnt be able to do.

In my opinion if you can't save you know that the enemy team won't send that much, so no furbolg or blood orc at lvl 3 for example. So you get a typical tower like Archers and play the main-tactic for it every fucking single game? Thats nooby. Cause you just do a stupid sheme like a retarded monkey. But if you get furbolg at 3 you leak and you wont be able to play the tactic anymore (maybe). now what??? You have to think about what to do in the next lvls to not leak and further incoming etc. I think also at uc bot ppl just do play cause it is much easier you get a race, you now from guides what to do and play without knowledge about the game - THATS FUCKING PRO? would be happy about a answer. Sorry for the words i used but you should ALL think about it. PEACE

Hello Mr. andystiles88, and welcome to the forums.

First of all, I'd like to say I agree with your stand on level 3, specially because you can see it coming (the bolgs and the blood orcs), and also, it is not a "game breaking" save. It can hurt you, yes, but you can choose to prepare for the incoming sends or just play regular, and that does increase the replayability of the game. If you think about it, in LTD War, no save only kicks in after level 4, that being said, I think it would be ok if Mega had a similar stuff, but then again, you gotta realize that saving lumber for 10 minutes is game breaking. There are no way to prepare for that, because most likely, the game will end. That saddens me a bit, because most of these saves are done by people who can't play well the later stages of the game or just do not like playing the whole game. I do like going through all the levels, and I do like beating people off with my incomer value in late stages. I also happen to think that saving is the only way some players can achieve win, so in a way I sort of accept it. It gives everyone chances to win, but unfortunately, a hard save can pretty much end any game at any level, and all you need to do is wait(that's what i'd call monkey schemes, and sorry for my languague).

The way it is now: Regarding incomers, on -os mode, you'll have bigger chances of winning if you play saving (solo player skill is minimized here, and teamplay is favored), and regular mode you'll have better chances of winning if you're the best. Simple as that.


Well, now, my routine suggestion: I'd like to suggest a different nosave (even though I know how much time you guys have put into this ns system).

For this system, instead of a increasing low limit of lumber for each level, you'd have a very high one, just high enough so you couldn't make a 10-15 minutes "save". Something like, you can only carry 2000 wood. that'd would go for all levels, if you manage to have more than 2000 wood, the autosend system would kick in. I call that "damage controlled saving".

What are you guys opinion on this  And what about having a few early levels before -ns kicks in

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Now, i'd rather not go off topic, but i'll reply to your whole post.

I'd like to add, there are many different levels of incomer players out there, there are people who can do amazing things with elite archers, and there are people who can only do "monkey schemes". Try not to confuse things

Furthermore, if every player do send all of his wood on all levels, that would be a lovely and very rich game to play, and as a major pub player, i must say i've been waiting for that legendary game, but no avail so far.

Also, guides been a part of Legion life ever since the game came out, I do miss your point here. Well, just to finish, I think you got the wrong impression about guides my friend, they are supposed to help people, and not to deify.

Best regards,
NERV

EDIT:

andystiles88 wrote:
In my opinion if you can't save you know that the enemy team won't send that much

I strongly disagree here. That's not entirely true. Under -ns mode, it is very possible to pull a 7/16 very soon, and after level 15, being able to send demons on each wave is kind of hardcore, if you ask me. So, yeah, -ns games take a while to take off, but remember, the wood that would've been kept saved, it is actually in game, so everyone does have more gold to start with. Which also means more lumber, and eventually, more summons. I gotta say this is the real spirit of Legion, at least for me.

andystiles88 wrote:In my opinion if you can't save you know that the enemy team won't send that much, so no furbolg or blood orc at lvl 3 for example.

Guess what, you can send a furboulg on level 2 and it will strike you harder than if it was sent on level 3, well maybe not in B11 version where it costs 160 lumber now
If you see your enemy is weak for some specific level, you can send harder on -ns games by using sends who don't give you full income (hermit, commander, furboulg, shaman, pudge, demon) and when they leak, you will receive extra gold and make more lumber upgrades then they do, or it will just cause enemy team to lose some gold, because their allies will get only a percentage of creep's value (way smaller percentage than in save games, because people keep lower values).

andystiles88 wrote:
So you get a typical tower like Archers and play the main-tactic for it every fucking single game? Thats nooby. Cause you just do a stupid sheme like a retarded monkey. But if you get furbolg at 3 you leak and you wont be able to play the tactic anymore (maybe).

No, you're just going to make a different monkey build and make 1 additional unupgraded archer for example, because everyone is going to send on level 3 instead of level 2. You can learn monkey builds in save games as well, becuase there are always similar amount of sends on specific waves in most games: 1 furb or 1 blood orc on level 3, 2 blood orcs on level 7, spam on level 10, demon and kraken on 17, demon and spam on 20. The only difference is you need to make only builds strong for those specific levels, and other levels are easily handled by overbuild needed to survive those critical levels and in -ns games you need to learn how to make an optimal build which will be good for ALL levels. In no save games you can actually send demon for level 20 as well, because you'll have way more lumber than in save games. In save games all levels beside critical ones are way harder, because there will be more sends all the time, since everyone has like 2 time more lumber upgrades than in save games. Instead of those 2k saved lumber on level 17, you will get 1k sends on both 16 and 17 and it's not easy to make a build which is good enough for those completely different levels.

andystiles88 wrote:
I think also at uc bot ppl just do play cause it is much easier you get a race, you now from guides what to do and play without knowledge about the game - THATS FUCKING PRO?

Prophet is played on UC as well, not pure races. UC is actually hosting a new version with -ph mode (prophet or hybrid), preventing players who can only play few pure races to win easily.

@NERV, i desagree with everything about saving-you shouldnt be able to save a single lumber in the entire game.

andystiles88 wrote: I think also at uc bot ppl just do play cause it is much easier you get a race, you now from guides what to do and play without knowledge about the game - THATS FUCKING PRO? would be happy about a answer.

I just couldnt leave this pass by. Many years now ppl play only prophet/hyb cause they thing that this is the "pro mode",bliax, well i have news for u, from all builders in game prophet and hyb are the 2 strongest the noobish thing here is this ph mode that bans all the normal builders, if u want to call yourself a good ltd player u have to do 7/15 with no more than 4 leaks before 20 with ALL BUILDERS. Now to this "pro" prophet, where is the defference if i pick nature and stuck thunderbirds and where is the defference if i get thunder birds on prophet?. Not to mention thunderbird on prophet is more than 2 times stronger since u can combo it with mermaid for example and have 7/16 realy soon with few leaks?. NO matter what every1 said no matter how wannabies they are EVERY normal builder is harder to play than prophet/hyb even for new players. But ofc if u are doing this thunderbird thing with nature u are noob while doing it on it`s stronger version in prophet mode is "pro" play. Tell me every1 how can u blame some1 for being noob cause he won u as marine/ghost/demi/beast/shadow/goblin/arctic/undead/orc/elf or element (the mech, nature and elite archer builders are stronger than the rest NORMAL builders but still not even close to prophet and hyb), While you are prophet and have
1)thunderbird
2)meat wagon
3) death dragon
4) elite archer
5)aqua spirit
6)mermaid
7)hades
8)nightcrawlers(shadow`s tier 2 i thing i wrote it wrong)
9)halfbreed
10) ToK,ToL
11)revenant
12)outcast
13)pyro
14)red dragon
15)blue dragon
16)blasters
17)peewee
18)elf`s tier 3(dont remember the name atm)
19)wolverin
20)wyvern
21)novice
22)shadow`s tier 5(dont remember the name
23)komodo
24)prisoner
25)helicopter
26)demi-human`s tier 1(dont remember the name)
27)trident
28)ice troll
28)ogre
29)tuskar spearman
30)egg sack
31)warlock
32)melial
33)goblin servant
34)violete
35)tree of travel
36) magnataur

And god knows how many others.With all these 36 units(i defenatly forget some) you can hit even 7/16 at 16 with minimum leaks while in the other hand u cant even use some of them if u play the builder they belong to and u defenatly CANT hit 7/16 w/o many leaks at all.
Actualy Marine, Ghost and demi are worthless, unplayable or extremly hard to play anyway.(they need boost).
(Now that i have the chance, i am 1 of the very few marine players, i pick her more than offen and i am for the few 7/15 marines but the truth is she suffered 2 much from previuse pacthes, w/e a very good change happent on her tier 5 but it isnt enought, marine`s unit`s problem is they are all tanks tier1-tank tier2-tank(skydragon is underpowered and needs good boost) tier 3 tank tier4 suppoer than makes others tankier tier 5-tank
and tier 6-tank(useless, this unit should be ment for dps not as tank, marine has her tier 5 now) i am more than 500% sure that if sky dragon get a seriuse dps boost together with -1mp and chaos dmg in hydra along with a boost in her tier 1(first upgrade -2mp and 10%more as)(second upgrade make it ranged and give it 2-3 more dmg and ability that boosts other units dmg a tier 1 has no use for this poison ability) Marine would be 1 of perfect builders 2.
I cant speak about demi and ghost, since i dont play them offen i am not in position t speak about them, i can only say tha phandom needs -5 cost and hell raiser or something +5 so that u can build a phandom at wave 2 easier.

Arctic, Goblin, Beast, Shadow, Undead and Orc are "perfect" which means that they can be both overpowered and underpowered depending only on players plays, they are also very flexible and u can do great with many builds, in other words every builder should be as strong as these ones and NONE of there units need any change(exept for harpie.needs range, guardian of death, needs less dmg and hp(it`s upgrade death dragon is fine tho) and orc`s tier 3 and maybe 1(the truth is this unit isnt working as it should anymore but i thing that`s cause of the map`s walking bug that prevents melle units to attack) need some boost.Exept for these units everything else about these builders is 500%balanced.

Then the stronger builders are Mech(pyroes,peewee(early)zeus krogoth(midgame)and dd(late) can give u best income with no leaks at all even in the entire game but i thing that if dd wasnt ranged unit then mech would be 1 of the perfect builders 2,his krogoth and leviathan acualy need a cost buff, they arent as good as they should and -20 gold would be good for both,if dd was melle then these 2 would have a use but ofc they need a boost) ZEUS is OVERRATED, Nature(thunderbird) and Elite archer(cb at 12 this builder,as his name tells, has only elite archers).

Now the op ones are Prophet and Hyb

Elf is wierd,she is strong but she has many fails as builder, in general she seems very incomplete,personaly the changes i would like to see:her tier 1 being ranged with dmg and hp close to tuskar spearman but a bit higher since it has no ability, or even better same dps like tuskar(or a bit lower) but hitting 2 targets so that u can combo them with crusader(at wave 3 he leaves enemies with low hp, so an aoe other than nightsaber would be nc. her tier 5`s male upgrade is way weaker than ascendant and then her nightsaber may need some boost in her dmg on bounces, the reduced dmg seems a bit 2 much but dunno about this change, personaly i like nightsaber, maveric is olso wierd, wierd builder.

And OFC as i said many times, a good player plays ALL builders, he is 7-15 with all of them with no more than 4 leaks and he isnt abusing prophet/hyb 24/7. In my last game as prophet i had 1600-1670 income and 25-26k value endgame and about 800-830 at 20 w/o that many leaks by using mainly meat wagon, w/e why havent i do this with undead? How come i never had such income with a perfect builder before O.o?Cause it isnt posible unless u leak the hell that`s why, undead doesnt have helicopter or a normal TANK to support war machines, propher does.

Do you want what i realy want to see in next version? A NORMAL BUILDER mode that doesnt let ppl from the same team pick a buidler more than once and bans prophet and hyb, in this mode it would be the only mode where we would see true plays, playing prophet isnt good play, sure it needs skill to have good incomes and values but every single normal builder is harder to play than prophet, that`s a fact, if u want to speak about this first play all builders have at least 1 buid that`s 7-15 with less than 4 leaks before 20 with all of them and then come and answer to me and say prophet/hyb is the "pro" mode.

As for guides they are ment to help new ppl, personaly i wrote a guide for arctic were it isnt my normal build but some1 who knows this build can make 99999 other builds stronget than the 1 i uploaded,probably even better than my own (close to imposible i am more than proud for my arctic plays ),to surpas some1 u dont have to start on ur own and getting help doesnt mean u are noob, following guild doesnt mean u blindly follow it u can make it better once u become a better player and ofc a guide helps every1 to become a better player and make better builds than the guid.When i uploaded this arctic guide this was why i didnt upload my best build, i ngree giving everything ready to some1 wont make him good player.

We all know how overpowered thunderbirds and meat wagons are and there is no point to take it as an argument to prove anything. We all know spamming only 1 of those is the same OP shit, no matter if you do it with prophet or pure builder. Everyone knows they're the first on the nerf list for future versions...
Everyone also knows playing prophet with -cb or hybrid is more powerful than playing pure builder with no -cb, but if there were pure builders only, legion td mega would be just another unpopular boring wc3 map played by very few people. For me personally, prophet is what keeps me playing it for so long, because you got numberless unit combinations to build and make new builds you never did before, no matter how many times you played it before.

P.S. Demi human, ghost and marine are way from worthless, but some of their units really do need slight boost.
The only problem about demi human are engineers nerfed a bit too much in B11, but I agree they were too overpowered in B8.
Ghost is playable the way it is, because of phantoms owning mid game, but units like mercurial and outcast need a small buff (I'd like to see soul of hero improved a bit as well). Mercurial's balance is made for x1 version where 1 mercurial is enough to cripple entire boss level, but now it's just far from that and her HP is a joke compared to her price. Outcast is supposed to be a very good unit, but it just doesn't work properly for some reason, probably because of its bugged ability. And as I said many times before, soul of hero needs faster attack with the same dps (its charge form at least, where it gets extra dmg instead of extra attack speed).
Marine was always strong hydra builder, which was actually very overpowered. After hydra spawns HP were reduced from 800 to 600, other units should've received some buffs, where only trident was buffed (and sky dragon too, where it also recieve extra dmg instead of extra attack speed, which made it bad even for level 5, where it was supposed to be the best). Murlocks and crabs still need some improvements, so marine can have alternative builds, because right now it's hydra and mermaid spam builder.