A few suggestions and a little discussion (v3.5b6)

Hello, I'm Ontrose and currently playing on the UC bots.

Recently there was a new version available, which of course got some childhood faults in it.

-fix the king (currently he can move around, shouldnt be like this i hope)
-Multiple shortcuts are not working in the barracks. The problem accurs after the barracks changes for the first time. (i think on lvl 8/9 to prevent spam)
-Fixing the Income bonus of different units: Behemoth (armor aura, so shouldnt have the full 20lumber/inc ratio), Frostwolves (frost aura, probably lose 1 income due to it?), and well. Probably somethin like: 80% income for Aura units 90% for single buff/debuff units (warlock, shaman,frost troll) and 100 for normal units without special abilitys.
-Sometimes theres a bug where a unit doesnt convert from beeing a tower to beeing a unit.
and well, i think these are the main flaws right now.

So, what i really hated were the new NS mode and that "anti spam" changes. i mean, the NS mode is optional, so this is just a personal dislike.
The problem with antispamming and NS together is the fact, that you can aticipate what the enemys sends more easy then ever. For unbalanced games saving might even the thing, a team can win.
Right now, after lvl 10, most of the time the team with higher incomes, since income is more important then the value (cos you can guess your leaks 5 rounds before you actually leak if you got some experience).
I personally think, that the Anti spam function should be optinal too. I know its quite a big time of work, so it would be nice if other ppl comment here, so the dev team can get a useful impression of the community needs.
Right now im just a single person bickering.

So fazit: NS+antispam makes the game way to predictable. Experienced players can guess 9/10 waves what kind of sends they will have to face. Once the ppl get used to the new units, we will be back to the top 3 races and everybody doing the same build, which is more foolproved then ever, cos i.e. archerbuilds could be countered via saving for furbolgs on lvl 2/3/7. So probably make the antispam optional or for ph/hp rounds only.
For me its obvious, that ns and that antispam is just as restricting as LI or even more. Taking away the choice of players.

Great job with the PH mode =)

Greetings,

Ontrose

p.s. would like to start a little discussion about the ns and primarily about the "no saving" features added.

Hey Ontrose

Thank you very much for your very detailed list of bugs.. We fixed the most needed and important ones in (B6), but there are still some bugs that need to be fixed. And yea, i think you pretty much list the most important ones there, thanks

About the Income granted for aura summons: 

It is true that there is an appreciable difference between the amount of income you get for aura units.. I believe that the more expensive summons (Krakens, Behemoths etc) actually need an aura to make a difference in the game (normally mid- and lategames), so i don't think that there should be a "punishment" for sending auras in lategame since they are needed to do any difference. 

Generally, i believe that sending aura summons should cost extra on cheap units and shouldn't on more expensive summons. 

-NS and "Massing":

Well, let me start out by saying that you come with up with some pretty good arguments, but my general conviction is that "massing" and "saving" are "cheap tricks" (sorry for the expression).. The Winner of a general Legion TD game should be determined by pure skills and not by who that are able to collect most lumber for a specifc level or send most units on a specifc level.. In other words, if people get too used to save and mass, they wont be able to "master" legion.. There are many different ways to compete in Legion (some of them really need skills and are different from version to version), but saving and massing are things all can do, and it ruins the opportunity for those people who are REALLY good..

As you mention -NS is already made as a mode.. It can be disabled.. This was a comprimise that we made because we knew some people enjoy playing without -ns.. But i'm afraid that is the absolute limit on how far we are willing to comprimise on that topic.. -ns is and will still be a part of the game (as a choice).

You mention that games get too preditcable with -ns and "no massing".. But i must admit i think games WITHOUT -ns and "no massing" are predictable: first of all expect a bunch of sendings on lvl 7 (mostly furbolgs), expect massing at 10 (militias, bowmen, ghouls), hell lot of sendings at 14 (most games end here, if not before), massing at 20 and damn lot of sending at 24.. This is VERY predictable in my opinion, and it ruins games..

Anyhow, i could come up with more arguments, but i am damn tired now.. 

(Sry for speaking my mind so directly, but you asked for a discussion (and don't stop doing that  ) ) 

Best Regards
Kongk

Allright, i think this discussion can go on for an indifinite amout of time, so i want to keep it short.

Massing or saving is the only way to get different builds to leaking (early furbs against archer, mass against blasters on bosslevel etc).
Lets face a fact, from the previous versions. If there is a choice to units, they will go for archer,blaster,orc warry and probably aqua ygg and infantry. These are the most used units.
I guess, many ppl dont even know what an upgraded gnoll is doing.
They will always prefer these units with their "unique" builds, which funny enough, always are exactly the same build. The same build order, the same time they go for workers and the exact same placement.
In the end, these players profit most of the new chances, due to the fact, that 80% or higher ratio of games, most players cant or just dont want to send furbs etc, due to the now huge income loss.
"It is true that there is an appreciable difference between the amount of income you get for aura units.. I believe that the more expensive summons (Krakens, Behemoths etc) actually need an aura to make a difference in the game (normally mid- and lategames), so i don't think that there should be a "punishment" for sending auras in lategame since they are needed to do any difference. "
The point is, commander, furb and stuff are most likely the units which makes the difference in early levels. They can be fatal for for hybrid or ppl who stay on the verge of leaking on purpose. But it is the ONLY way to make some builds leaking.
And in my opinion, remembering a probably read up or copied build is not any kind of skill, besides having a working brain...
Thats my opinion, i knew beforehand, that the devs are UC members or at least close related, that this is overall a timewaste.

In the end, you made this map way easier, especially with that now absolute unleakable and foolproved builds.
You say later units need auras to make a difference, that goes for early levels too. Who cares on lvl 9 if he gets 2 dinos and a wyvern? a furbolg does have a bigger impact.
Same goes for lvl 19, who cares about 2 ballista and a garg? A kraken is what makes the difference. Balanced builds most likely wont leak due to a bigger send. At leaast not that much, to make a difference in the long run.

And if you watch the change of playstyle... Way more income earlier, cos ppl dont fear a to get a furb anymore or anything, because right now, 90% of time you can neglect to build more then you need for a wave. Normally an income with about 70-90 before first arena is only done by archers. Since you dont have to care anymore, everything below 60-70 gets unnormal. In the end of game, its just about massig as many big units you can. (Thought, thats primarily a x3 problem, still its gettin worse now)



In the end, do what ya want.

There is no skill in saving lumber for certain hard levels. Calling this a 'tactic' would be like calling Lil Wayne an artist. In any case, ns is still optional, you don't have to play it. As for the new 'no massing' policy goes, that's just removing an abuse, massing is an abuse. 
Anyhow, if you have skill, you can very well send a furb each wave.

Ontrose wrote:Normally an income with about 70-90 before first arena is only done by archers.

Now that's just ignorant. 

Yes, there is a lot more that needs to be done, but all the changes made so far are definitively for the better.

Johnny

its not for the better, its just for easier pushing of lumber and income öÖ

and "normally" doesnt mean always. the casual players normally ended up on about 50 income before arena. Now the casual player ends about 60+
And as far as "skill" goes for you guys, its staying on the edge of leaking, maximizing your lumber and of course income. The only point for restricting saves and massing early on is to make THAT easier. Why dont we just all go archer or merc and max income? Then we are all idiotically follow the same build... but hey we are pro then.
And in the end, thats what will happen. Right now they are hyped about the new mode, but wait a couple of weeks, then we will be back to the normal 5 races or better units to spam early on...

uhm btw, who is lil wayne?

Merc is supposed to be removed. In any case, the point of balancing towers is that it doesn't matter what you get and you have (almost) every opportunity that all players in game have. I said that there's a lot that needs to be done and I meant it. Archers are still op (getting 7/8 before lvl 10 shouldn't be that easy). The same goes for all other 'op' towers. 
I played with savers all the time and still managed to get above 70 income in 99,9% of the games regardless of my towers. 

And I'm very sorry for mentioning Lil Wayne, it was just to make an analogy. Don't look him up if you have the pleasure of not knowing who he is, trust me.

Well, the problem about balancing units is, you should have to remake each and every one from the scratch.
a third is op, a few or more or less useful support units and rest is wasted.
Lets just take that banshee+upgrades or harpye. To be honest, their only real use is against bosses and probably 28, where are only a few units.
Archers and Aquas are just so op, because of the X3 mode.
But well, thats a useless topic, just wanted to mention it, way to popular now...
In the end, following a premade build order, which mostlikely ist just copied from somwhere/some1 else, isnt what i call skill. And the fact is, look 100 games with archers... you might have 3 different build orders. Just to make it clear, you can take Aquas, Archers, Blasters, orc warrys etc...
They all end up same... real skill is to adapt to your enemys, building whats nessecary to stay alive even if there are cheapshots.
I personally will most likely stop to play legion td after the next version, and with this whole wc3 (legion td is about 90% of the time i spend on bnet), since it got way too easy with that changes.
I dont think im a rare breed or anything, but i personally prefer a challange instead of a perfect thing. And the cheapshots are the challange, not taking down the waves.
In the end, it comes 90% down to your value (lvl 25+) and only 10% to what you are building.

And i want to ask you: What is more statisfying?
If you think: "Hah assholes! even with your cheapshot we have been beating you"
or "yay wasnt even close leaking"

I personally prefer the challange.

It's not a matter of remaking from scratch, it's just a matter of nerf and buff. And yes, there are 'support' units, that's one of the things that makes this game so diverse. 
And as long as the guy who get's the archers has the biggest advantage, legion will never be an adequate competitive game. 

Now we can debate the whole 'save/no save' question for eternity, but it all comes down to the fact that ns mode is OPTIONAL, you don't have to play it. And if you want to play games like these, go to ENT bots, all they do there is save. It's made very competitive with a point system and I think you'll find it very enjoyable. 

Anyway, to answer your question: I take absolutely no satisfaction in defeating someone who has 7/6 or 7/7 and saves for demons and multiple smaller sends on 17.

13 and 14 are hard levels? 15 is where the meta is at

Nothing spices up a game like getting a kraken on 15. ^_^

Right now the pubs stay on the edge to leaking and half of theam leave after leaking a couple of units. The only thing, that changed, is that the possibility to leak is way lower.
And supports units well.. i think you mean aura units.
With support i mostly talking about spec/dark priest etc. No ones building them for the debuffs (besides bosslevel). Might change if ai changes (so they dont all buff the very first unit in sight... even if 20 of them are there they most likely all buff the same). Thats an X3 problem i guess...
And i dont think i said "remove ns" ;)i know its optional, but due to beeing the standart mode if you just write ap/hp/ph etc, 95% of games will have it.. fine as it goes.
The matter is, that ppl dont have choice on that map for massing/not massing.
Abusing the way to income. The only abuse there is the unfair balancing. But as long as it not properly balanced, it will be used. And the only way to counter that builds right now ARE the cheapshots.
Right now, i can tell on round 3 if an archer will leak on 7. Same for blasters etc. I'm playing since release, ive got some experienced but i never really cared about maxing out anything, nor do i care about stats at all. I think there are loads of ppl out there, way better at calculating what sends may come etc.
And right now, its more predictable then ever.
The next thing is, normally teambuilding ends up pretty poor on x3 versions, so everybody going to max out their own stuff and thats it
Ever played the good old X1 version? Teaming up was worth and and could be far stronger then single builders.

Anway, back to topic... Ns is optional, thats good. But autosending the creeps is like shooting your own feet. I mean, let them get punished by losing lumber. Then they will learn to send early enough. I personally think, taking away the responsibility to things yourself if the worst thing you could do on that mode. Thats what the old NS mode did in the old versions. Why didnt keep that? Your talking about skill... so let them prove the skill by sending themselves and not giving them an excuse to be lazy.
removing merc... absolutely agreeing on that one.
But i think, going for income should be way, way harder. The initial thought on income was: let them lose value to be able to make enemys leak via sends. Sends are half of time... well doesnt have impact anyway.  And in old versions (the versions without x3), normally incomer and low incomer had about the same value in th end. The difference is, their sends had some impact on the waves. Make the sends way stronger, to increase the risk of leaking. So you have to decide: Getting your waves safe OR incoming and might leak/get the other side leaking.
Tough time balancing that, especially, on the x3 versions.

I think most of the UC Staff knows me more or less. I dont think they like me, which doesnt matter in the end.
I'm a adequate player but unstable because i like to take risks and try out new stuff.
The key of the map, should be going for income and risk your defense, or playing way safe.
Right now, mass income is the only way to get through, and that got way to easy, especially with the strong "5" units... just made up the number, you know pretty well which units needs be changed... most likely better then i do.
The point is, there is most of the time, no disadvante, nearly no risk in raising your income early and hard.
I think, 7, 2/3 is the thing you can always get by the time of the first arena. thats fine. But the new version, due to lack of risks, its rather normal to have 7/4 or more. I personally love hybrid and barely end up with less then 7/5 after arena.
And like i mentioned before, i'm for sure not the best player out there and pretty unstable...

p.s. Saving = sacrificing your own income for a while and your end value for some higher sends. Not really an abuse for me. Same goes for massing. Massing only works against somethin like blasters, units with big damage. Your just forced to get a few lil units to take the sends... but that would break the "perfect" build.
Preventing players to save for 5 rounds or so, i can agree with it. But for a single round? (though, i dont have a clue, how you would programm it into the map).
I think right now its like 20*wavenumber you can save (at least it was in the old versions.. right now it starts with 80 and going up to 240 or somethin? not sure..). Instead let player save like: wisps*20+lumber ups*25. The amount you can save depends on your gathering skills not on the level.

Hi Guys

I'm won't really get further into this discussion at this point. I have already stated my mind earlier, but i will just leave a few basic comments. First of all, about the auto-spending thing, it was first made so that no people wouldn't lose lumber because of -ns. About the opinion that people should be able to spend lumber by themselves, i will just mention the huge delay in mega.. It would really ruin everything, if you lost your lumber when playing -NS.

And about what makes you a pro.. There are very many different kinds of factors determining if you are really good and able to "master" the game, and yea, holding the level with absolutely minimum value is a very good start

Anyways, its a very good debate you guys are having here.. I will leave the rest to you

Best Regards
Kongk

Right now, i wouldnt really call this a proper discussion at all.
There are hundrets playing, and only 3 or well 4 are talking here...
Guess, the majority of players, do not even have an own opinion.
Well, useless to keep this on.

Cheer up dude

It's true that not a lot of people visit this forum, but that's what we got to work with at the moment. You made some fine arguments and people have talked about them in a civilized manner. I'd call that a discussion.

Although maybe not exactly the discussion you wanted, or the change of direction on our part that you wished for.

But thank you for starting this conversation and sharing your opinion on these matters. It really is appreciated, even if we don't agree on everything.

I've posted a statement regarding saving and massing here:
(link) legiontd.forumotion.com/t459-about-saving-and-massing-in-35-beta

I'm very happy that the mega development goes on, and I've disliked massing tactics since ever, but, my impression of HuanAk work's was that he wanted to make the map as hard as possible, for everyone. Even pro players would have to be caution and alert as they income and while the games goes on. That's was an aspect of the Legion MEGA that I enjoyed for a long time.


Well, As I said before, I never liked massing tactics, but now with the stocks on barrack decreased, they feel like Lisk old barracks, but (bare with me on this) Lisk was the original Legion, it had 1x creeps, and mega has 3x creeps, dunno that but maybe massing kinda fits mega in some way. Maybe it's not massing that fits mega, but it's the possibility of sending more units per round than you could do with Lisk's Old Versions, sorta. Saucer, I see you already made your stand against massing, but maybe you gotta go back and have a new look at things, I feel like you'had cut massing tactics by like 95%%, but maybe it was too much.


If not by massing, then perhaps the income creep's are too weak, and maybe they gotta be strong on mega, what makes me says that is because you can't feel the income power on early game on Beta 6 anymore. I mean, if you can't mass send anymore, you could at least have some good incomes to send. As some people state over the forums, Beta 6 feels much more like an easier version of mega. 


e.g. about the furbolg increased cost, I believe it fits better the mid~end game, because I guess it's was ok to be able to send furbolgs at early game and they cost was ok too, was just imba for late (massing 'bolgs seemed to be more effective than sending 1 or 2 Leviathans, and you had the income loss from bolgs to balance things out, but in end game the income loss was just irrelevant, especially if you'r having long rounds). anyway that's the kinda of adjustment I believe it has to be done with incomes creeps. Maybe you gotta rework income barracks, income creeps seems to get more effective/ less effective as the game goes while their cost is still the same. Not being able to mass send units, but to actually be able to (at least try) do some dmg with one good income creep whenever the player feels like. 


A guy said on ENT's forum :

"This version is geared towards very long games in which winning isn't the main goal - its more for 'relaxed' feel good players."

This is his opinion right, but I kinda agree with him. I can say that Beta 6 isn't so much 'bout winning nor it is competitive as 3.41. (I just might going bollocks , but would be more competitive if the game was harder, and you had to actually play against the machine while you gotta deal with the other team).
Anyway, it's hard to balance things out, especially with change builder option and many people playin prophet. IT makes all imba, in my honest opinion.


Currently I'm playin' beta6 at gameranger, and seems like most players here are having a hard time accepting the new stylish of sends in it.
It also seems like they rather play for the win/loss ratio, than any other thing. Take your own conclusions on that. 

Cyall

I decided to try out the map, and the one huge glaring error I saw was wave 34. If you're 2 players vs 3-4 players you are almost guaranteed to lose BECAUSE your wave 34 cannot block wave 35 from 3 shotting your maxed king. Wave 34 is immensly powerful at clearing units, but that's part of the problem. It clears units so well that there's too much of wave 34 left for 35 to kill king. Maybe move wave 34 to wave 33 in a slightly nerfed form and 33 to 34 in a slightly buffed form and have a longer delay before sending 35 would help.

Yeah, Switching up wave 34 with 33 might do the trick, and I like it better because you would have :

- lv 31 melee units
- lv 32 again melee units
- lv 33 range units
- lv 34 melee again and
- lv 35 ultimate boss, range unit

anyway, fire lords might still block other creeps from reaching king, so maybe reducing its collision size and range as well? Maybe adding some sorta of skill where they jump to target and deal some aoe dmg? that would get 'em close to king, makin' it easier for other creeps to reach king.


btw, for curiosity matters, weird thing happend to me last game here. Played a game and got to lv 31 with 19800 value, then lv 31 came and erased all my units! I got like a kraken for income. O_O
Was hybrid game. I lost that game. didn't had any leaks whole game, go figure it out.

Also... sometimes I get to see people massing hades for whole game, and then when they get to lv 31 sometimes they can't deal with it before lv 32 spawns, so they just get killed really close to teleport with lv 32 spawning right in their face or sometimes they just don't even finish lv 31 and then get stomp'd by lv 32 'n 31 altogether. I'll try to keep an eye for values next time I see this happening, but people whom I saw this happenin' to had good value at lv 31, (like 20k+, and this is much more than needed to clear lv 31)

Maybe if after the initial 30 seconds of lv 31, every friendly unit get teleported down to king?

I would also like to suggest that waves 32 'n beyond change its spawn right to the middle of the map, instead from regular spawn lanes. Whatchu guys think about it?

Hey guys

Thanks for the great interest you Guys have and show in the map.. It's much appreciated

About the blocking issue, I made some changes yesterday that hopefully will get rid of that very annoying issue.. I also tried something to reduce lag after lvl 31.. So that should be better in the next patch.. (Will probably be released during this week)..

I haven't noticed any similar to that issue you mention Nerv.. If you notice it again plz send a replay, so we can get to the bottom of this

Best Regards
Kongk

So it is you making a new ltd mega?
How about open release?

We will not release an open editor version of the Mega map, but thank you for the interest.

You can use the open Legion TD v1.50 as a starting point if you wish. But I'd encourage any experienced map editors to get in touch with me instead, so that we can combine our efforts and work together on an existing project, such as the Pro and Revo maps.

Mega will be worked on exclusively by Kongk and myself at this time.

And if you have suggestions on how we can improve Mega (or the other maps), then we'd love to hear about them.

Improve mega? Nah.
1.50b? Are u nuts? This version is 5 years old.
And btw i am a creater of Legion -TD Season, and what u tell me, that only, you want to help me.
If u think ur Mega.. can go on next lvl with no re-balance on it, u are an idiot ;( sadly.
HuanAk kill'd all old race's, and what u going to do with it? Making new races again? sad.

So how about u giving me open sorse and i will go to the next lvl on our new release Legion -TD Season?
Think about it, if u can think ofc.

*What can i say, there is 2 people who make real legion td, lisk and egze, what about other's they are fking idiot's.
They broke real strategy in MEGA, REVO etc.. even they map name's are Stupied. MEGA MEGA BIT of shit.*

Your hostile attitude is not welcome here.

I speak nicely to you, and I ask that you do the same when writing on this forum.

If you can't phrase your criticism / requests in a friendly manner, then this conversation ends here.

I think u don't understand English language, i were saying to you, that we are developer's of Legion -TD Season, 3 years old project, and u telling me to get 1.5b? Omg u such a ... u know.
Yes i know who make Legion TD, and u are lame persons on this site, who decide nothing.
What u can do, is only do destroy real hard work by Lisk and Egze, all of u just a piece of paper.

U don't want help us, ok np. We do it by self's, what can i say, u making a big mistake.
Because u stupid people. U know how people name'd ur map? Lego, search Wiki.
So u making a map for child's only, wow how nice. And what they will learn on it? How much value they need on next lvl?
Hahh, they don't even know what means strategy in Legion TD.

And what we have from 2 years, they don't know how to play in normal Legion TD.
They don't even know what is INC and only spam lumber to try kill enemy's, and lose, lose, lose, or win with imbalance.
Is this what u will do in next beta? Try to think, TRY TO FUKING THINK, what a shit you doing.

We don't need ur help at all, but if any one with iq>90, want to help us make a perfect Legion TD map email us on [removed], or contact us on [removed]